PDA

View Full Version : SF guys transitioning to 40SW and the Glock 22?


FlyingPen
07-06-2008, 12:12 PM
I've heard and read rumors that the HSLDOMGBBQACRONYM black helicopter guys are starting to transition to the Glock 22 and 40SW. Has anyone heard about this?

After owning a Sig in 40SW, I've found the caliber to be kind of stupid in the civilian world since quality hollow points in both 40SW and 9mm expand to the same diameter and have the same penetration. I guess it might make more sense in the military world because they can't use hollow points but the lower speed/accuracy of follow up shots and reduced capacity doesn't seem smart.

bobfried
07-06-2008, 12:55 PM
Wait I'm confused, you think they are "transitioning" from a 9mm to a 40?

You probably have not dealt with or kept up with HSLD people flying around on black helicopters. They haven't used anything other than .45's in well over a decade now.

FlyingPen
07-06-2008, 12:57 PM
I have no direct experience for sure. This is only from using a San Diego armorer who also sells a lot of Sigs to Navy guys who train on Coronado Island. And from the HKPRO board and from another well respected Calgunner who doesn't seem to bull**** about stuff. Just curious.

I'm sure the black helo guys can use whatever they want but it seems in training courses and standard stocked issue, the Glock 22 and 40SW is rumored to be in wide use.

bobfried
07-06-2008, 1:09 PM
The widest use small-arms that I know of by the "special people" are almost entirely composed of 1911's. I have seen a sprinkling of MK23's, other HK's, a few Sig 220's and even a few CZ's. I've yet to see any striker-fired weapons in the hands of those guys (and that includes all branches) let alone a Glock.

But whatever the weapon, if it isn't the issued M9 than it'll be something in .45 almost exclusively. Maybe one or two unit might opt for something in .40, but I doubt they'd choose a striker fired weapon even if that was true. It's much easier to deal with a hammer fired weapon as far as quick weapons check and ease of use since most military guys are trained initially with M9's.

And I did hear of a large contract issued to SIG to produce a salt-spay proofed version of their 226 and 220's. This is obviously for people that swim in the ocean. But even that would be a leap of faith to a .40 Glock 22 since SIG's been in use with NAVSPECWAR even in the 80's. A SIG is one thing, but a .40 caliber Glock is another thing altogether.

FlyingPen
07-06-2008, 7:23 PM
Yeah I found it incredibly odd as well especially the KB! Glock 22. But hearing it from 3 different sources really made me wonder.

Of the 1911s, I'm guessing Wilson CQB, Nighthawk GRP, and the Kimber Warrior series are pretty popular right? Didn't the USMC armory or someone else put together a couple of parts guns 1911 as well from old stock?

.45shooter
07-06-2008, 7:29 PM
Didn't the USMC armory or someone else put together a couple of parts guns 1911 as well from old stock?

Called MEUSOCS .45 back in the day they were being put together from old stock and new over the counter as well as fabricated parts...Springfield is making them now..Civie version is the MC Operator

Greg-Dawg
07-06-2008, 8:02 PM
Yeah I found it incredibly odd as well especially the KB! Glock 22....

KABOOOOOOOOOM!!! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/300sniper/gif/howaglockworks.gif)

Sobriquet
07-06-2008, 8:48 PM
I just can't imagine an operator giving up his HK or Sig for a Glock. Not without a fight, anyway.

I'm not a mall ninja, but I'd imagine the ability to cock the hammer and fire the first shot SA would be a big advantage for those special forces types.

FlyingPen
07-06-2008, 9:14 PM
I think Glocks definitely have their place and I wouldn't mind carrying one at all, I think they're a quality firearm that has been more than well proven. I just personally prefer Sigs since I hate polymer pistol triggers but I was actually more surprised about the 40SW caliber choice.

IMO so far, 9mm, 45ACP, and 357SIG are the only calibers that make sense for real use.

Sobriquet
07-06-2008, 9:33 PM
I think Glocks definitely have their place and I wouldn't mind carrying one at all, I think they're a quality firearm that has been more than well proven. I just personally prefer Sigs since I hate polymer pistol triggers but I was actually more surprised about the 40SW caliber choice.

IMO, 9mm, 45ACP, and 357SIG are the only calibers that make sense for real use.

I'm pretty sure my HK trigger has plastic over a steel trigger... It certainly doesn't flex.

leelaw
07-07-2008, 12:49 AM
I just can't imagine an operator giving up his HK or Sig for a Glock. Not without a fight, anyway.

I'm not a mall ninja, but I'd imagine the ability to cock the hammer and fire the first shot SA would be a big advantage for those special forces types.

I know several FBI agents who were forced to retire their Sigs, only to be issued a Glock.

They fought hard to prevent it, and were unsuccessful. They're not happy with their Glocks.

slick_711
07-07-2008, 11:16 AM
Which black helo guys are you talking about? :confused: MIL or CIV?

The vast majority of the .mil SF guys that are not using M9s are using 1911s or Sigs. There are no Glocks in issued use with the US military and there never will be; there are also not many HKs still in use, the Mk23 was found to be ridiculously large and cumbersome on the operator level (I think there were less than 2000 of them ever delivered to SOCOM in the first place). The majority of SEALs are using 228s & 226s. Rangers were still using M9s last I checked, the Green Berets have a bit of leeway, but 99.9% of them are using M9s or 1911s. Delta uses strictly high end 1911s, it's been said that 'more .45ACP is fired through 1911s in Delta training than any other place in the world.' The Marines are still using the 1911. The PJs/CROs are using the M9.

Now the .gov black helos... that's an entirely different story. I've seen a little bit of everything there, and I'm not really experienced in that area anyway. Do see a lot of Sigs and HKs though.


Sidenote of personal opinion: .40S&W is for girls.

FlyingPen
07-07-2008, 11:19 AM
I'm pretty sure some Marine units were actually issued Glocks. I wish I could remember where I got that info.

slick_711
07-07-2008, 11:47 AM
I'm pretty sure some Marine units were actually issued Glocks. I wish I could remember where I got that info.

Well, I'm not saying you're wrong J., maybe you know something I don't?

It is my understanding that US .mil regs require the sidearms to be produced (or at least assembled, etc.) in the US. That's why both Sig and Beretta opened US manufacturing plants. To further complicate that, the Tennifer metal treatment process applied to the Glocks that makes them so impervious is an EPA violation; so they could never be produced in the US, as Gaston Glock has reportedly said he will not produce a Glock without that treatment.

That said, I'm not sure where the MK23s were produced, so it's entirely likely this manufacturing requirement is not applicable to SOCOM firearms and you are thinking of a specialized USMC unit? I'm not aware of any USMC units carrying Glocks but there are countless things in this life I am not aware of. :p

Nonetheless, for the above mentioned reason, Glock will never enter standard issue US military service that so many proclaim it would be perfect for.

Casual Observer
07-07-2008, 12:07 PM
Yes, there are certain units that are issued and trained with the Glock 22.

Yes , I do know that for a fact.

No, I won't tell you who they are.

slick_711
07-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Yes, there are certain units that are issued and trained with the Glock 22.

Yes , I do know that for a fact.

No, I won't tell you who they are.

And you know who shot JFK but can't tells us, right?

I'm going to take you at your word because you're a Calgunner, but the manner in which you made that statement is a poor way to show credibility. :rolleyes:

Casual Observer
07-07-2008, 12:21 PM
And you know who shot JFK but can't tells us, right?

I'm going to take you at your word because you're a Calgunner, but the manner in which you made that statement is a poor way to show credibility. :rolleyes:

Understandable, but being in the military you should know there are individuals who are just normal every day guys you hang out with on the weekend but don't want you telling people, especially on the internet, where they work and what they do for a living. I have one or two buddies like that who are in the US Army and are issued Glock 22s.

MrEd
07-07-2008, 12:28 PM
Black helicopter can mean many things , most operators use weapons of larger calibers the .45ACP being top pick .
Some Amphibious units use Sig 226's in 9 mm . Some DHS units and the FBI rank and file use Glocks but the FBI swat teams and HRT uses high grade 1911 .
Then there are the agencies and units you most likely never heard off , they use a whole list of guns . Bottom line at that level they tend to see it as a tool box and will use anything and everything if it is the right tool for the mission . If you encounter them you know you are in the presence of real black helicopter folks . :TFH:

slick_711
07-07-2008, 12:30 PM
Understandable, but being in the military you should know there are individuals who are just normal every day guys you hang out with on the weekend but don't want you telling people, especially on the internet, where they work and what they do for a living. I have one or two buddies like that who are in the US Army and are issued Glock 22s.

Hm, point to you sir.

E. Fudd
07-07-2008, 7:48 PM
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong J., maybe you know something I don't?

It is my understanding that US .mil regs require the sidearms to be produced (or at least assembled, etc.) in the US. That's why both Sig and Beretta opened US manufacturing plants. To further complicate that, the Tennifer metal treatment process applied to the Glocks that makes them so impervious is an EPA violation; so they could never be produced in the US, as Gaston Glock has reportedly said he will not produce a Glock without that treatment.

That said, I'm not sure where the MK23s were produced, so it's entirely likely this manufacturing requirement is not applicable to SOCOM firearms and you are thinking of a specialized USMC unit? I'm not aware of any USMC units carrying Glocks but there are countless things in this life I am not aware of. :p


Nonetheless, for the above mentioned reason, Glock will never enter standard issue US military service that so many proclaim it would be perfect for.

Aren't at least some Glock frames now being manufactured in a plant somewhere stateside? I read somewhere Glock's son is the who's it in charge at the plant....

slick_711
07-07-2008, 8:40 PM
Yes, there are frames being made in the US, correct. Their SNs end in US. The Tennifer treatment is applied to the slide though, so the receivers are able to be made here.

FlyingPen
07-08-2008, 12:29 PM
Yes, there are certain units that are issued and trained with the Glock 22.

Yes , I do know that for a fact.

No, I won't tell you who they are.

Any idea why then went with the Glock and the 40SW? Any new tests they've done?

Casual Observer
07-08-2008, 1:43 PM
Any idea why then went with the Glock and the 40SW? Any new tests they've done?

Not to my knowledge, but I'll ask next time I see my buddy. Might be a while though, he's scheduled to be on "vacation" for the next few weeks.

uscbigdawg
07-08-2008, 4:55 PM
So...our super secret squirrel guys here at Bragg have been using .40's for a while. And for the "tacticool" guys that say that my STI Edge isn't tactically correct, they've been testing and operating with STI Tactical .40's. Yep...Hi-cap mags and all.

Rich

FlyingPen
07-08-2008, 7:03 PM
I'm really curious why they went to 40SW. Maybe in FMJ, it performs much better than a 9.

Adonlude
07-09-2008, 5:04 PM
Darn, got all the way to the end of this thread hoping for a 9mm vs .40S&W debate and it didn't happen. So everyone is just wasting mag capacity by choosing the .40 then?

slowfire
07-09-2008, 5:08 PM
I don't think that I have ever seen round nose FMJ in .40 cal. Maybe I should shoot .40 cal more often.

FlyingPen
07-09-2008, 7:02 PM
Darn, got all the way to the end of this thread hoping for a 9mm vs .40S&W debate and it didn't happen. So everyone is just wasting mag capacity by choosing the .40 then?

There is no debate about it when it comes to modern hollow points. 9mm and 40SW in standard loads expand out to almost exactly the same degree and have the same depth of penetration. With 40SW you're just trading mag capacity, slower and less accurate follow up shots, and more gun wear/battering.

However, it might be a different story when you're legally restricted to using non hollow point bullets.

tonelar
07-09-2008, 7:17 PM
Yes, there are frames being made in the US, correct. Their SNs end in US. The Tennifer treatment is applied to the slide though, so the receivers are able to be made here.

I've never heard of this requirement that US Govt weapons be assembled in the states. Some say that Beretta was awarded the M9 contract BECAUSE they offered to move production to the states AND came over with a better price. While at that time, SIG was not willing to move production out of Germany. The Sig 228 was adopted BEFORE Sig moved production to the states. In fact, I don't think 228s were ever produced outside of Germany.
There are plenty of weapons in US service that are not produced or assembled here.


I don't think that I have ever seen round nose FMJ in .40 cal. Maybe I should shoot .40 cal more often.

I haven't either. However I've seen RNFP FMJ .40s... maybe they're planning on suppressing these weapons?
Then you'd want the sloooooower bullet.

http://lonelymachines.org/images/dark_helmet.jpg

Mall Ninjas, to your .40s!

CowtownBallin
07-10-2008, 12:09 AM
There is no debate about it when it comes to modern hollow points. 9mm and 40SW in standard loads expand out to almost exactly the same degree and have the same depth of penetration. With 40SW you're just trading mag capacity, slower and less accurate follow up shots, and more gun wear/battering.


I would tend to agree, but the actual make of the ammunition also counts for a lot.

This site has FBI's data for all sorts of calibers and makes/models of ammo
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

FlyingPen
07-10-2008, 12:57 AM
I would tend to agree, but the actual make of the ammunition also counts for a lot.

This site has FBI's data for all sorts of calibers and makes/models of ammo
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

Interesting results, and from the conclusion:

the best .45ACP loads and the best .40 loads were pretty close. "heavy" 9mm's were noticably behind. "light" 9mm's were last,

One reason many cite for shooting 9x19 over .40 or .45 is that is has less recoil. I can empty my Glock 19's magazine into a 3" target much faster than I can my Glock 23. Maybe twice as fast.

I think I would still go with the 9mm for follow up speed and accuracy.

In clothes, winchester Ranger Talon 147gr had a average cubic wound volume of 4.92 which is the highest for 9mm. In 40SW, it seems best avg is 5.78, 45ACP is 6.91.

When looking then at total wound volume, 40SW is theoretically 15% more effective at bleeding someone out than 9mm. 45ACP is 29% more effective than 9mm.

In terms of penetration, they all exceed the 12" mark.

In terms of best per final expanded bullet diameter in clothed, 9mm is .65", 40SW is .72", 45ACP is .81". So a 9% improvement for 40SW and 20% for 45ACP over 9mm.

I still think, at least with HP ammo, only 9mm or 45ACP makes sense.

Matt P
07-10-2008, 10:44 AM
Excellent job flying......

You provided very clear and easy to understand info for fellow Cal gunners to view.

Whats interesting, I have never seen a test on regards to recoil, muzzle flip, and any other factor as it relates to those 3 cals.
Yes, I understand and know the differences, what I am saying is just some form of testing protocall which measures those issues, and then factors that in with bullet affect.

Anyways, great job.

FlyingPen
07-10-2008, 11:00 AM
If you follow the link to Zak Smith's site, you'll see some stats on recoil.

It seems 380 kicks the least and provides you the best value in terms of wound/recoil ratio.

9mm overall kicks the least and 40SW kicks as much if not more than 45ACP.

bobfried
07-10-2008, 4:09 PM
It's hard to grade "recoil" since every gun, every load, every shooter will be different. There are just too many variable.

I personally do not like 9mm or .40 because I do not like how fast the bullet travel out of the barrel. Recoil doesn't bother me considering I can plink with .44 magnum and shooting .460 and .500 is not a big deal. However, the speed of the bullet as it goes through the barrel and exit does effect me since it will induce more muzzle flip.

The caliber that is easiest to do follow up shots for me are .45's mostly because I can feel exactly when the bullet exits the barrel and compensate for the next shot. With .40 especially, the bullet is flying too fast for me to "feel' anything so I am unable to compensate properly and recover for the follow up shot.

Note that if your not use to shooting bigger stuff the recoil of the .45 would get you before the speed of the bullet becomes a factor. Now if your talking a 3" barrel than yes the .45 is atrocious since the recoil itself is pretty bad, especially out of a Glock 36, the recoil matters more in that pistol than the speed of the bullet.

To make a long comparison short, a person needs to balance recoil and bullet velocity to get to a good place. If your shooting larger guns with longer (4"+) than I personally am faster with a .45 than with a .40 and P++ 9mm. But when your talking about smaller guns with shorter barrel than I am faster with a .40 or 9mm. But generally speaking, I am much faster with a .45 than with .40 or 9mm P++; reason being that I can feel the .45 slug easier and better compensate for it as it exits the muzzle and get ready for the next shot.

FlyingPen
07-10-2008, 4:14 PM
Bobfried, you would really hate some of the 1600-1700fps Corbon and other loads for the 357SIG then :)

CowtownBallin
07-10-2008, 11:38 PM
Whats interesting, I have never seen a test on regards to recoil, muzzle flip, and any other factor as it relates to those 3 cals.
Yes, I understand and know the differences, what I am saying is just some form of testing protocall which measures those issues, and then factors that in with bullet affect.

Like FlyingPen said, if you follow the link to the FBI testing results I posted, the second-to-last column gives you the free recoil energy (assuming a 1.88lb pistol), and the last column gives you the ratio of wound volume to free recoil energy. So, you want the recoil energy to be low, and you want the ratio to be as high as possible (high wound volume, low recoil).

I don't really know much about ammo, I just shoot the cheap stuff (WWB, Wolf, etc) so I picked the highest scoring ones.

Winchester Ranger PG 9mm 124gr : 2.67 re, 1.54
Federal Hydrashok .40S&W 165gr: 4.08 re, 1.28
Remington .45ACP 185gr: 4.71 re, 1.17
Remington GS .357Mag 125gr: 3.92 re, 0.91
CCI/Speer GD .380ACP 90gr: 1.19 re, 1.96

Now, 1.88lbs isn't really that much...my Taurus Millennium Pro .45 is 850g/1.87lb loaded (10rds). The average 1911 loaded with 7 or 8 rounds is like 2.7lbs, so your recoil energy would shrink and your ratio would go up. Same with my 2.4lb CZ75BD :)

Do you guys think this FBI data is valuable at all? 'Cause I can put it into excel real quick and plot some graphs hahaha

Sobriquet
07-10-2008, 11:44 PM
I'll stick to my .45s. Especially with Federal HST ammo. It's more effective than .40 S&W and I think it the recoil is less harsh.

I still don't understand why they would be going to a Glock when you have USP Tacticals and Compact Tacticals in .45 in inventory.

CowtownBallin
07-11-2008, 12:44 AM
Interesting to note that 77 of 87 penetrated at least 12 inches in clothed gelatin.

Four of the ten lowest penetrating rounds were 115gr 9mm +P and +P+, which is interesting because we're always (apparently incorrectly) saying that light, fast-moving 9mm overpenetrates and kills innocent civilians, girl scouts, pregnant ladies, etc standing behind the BG. With 9-10" of penetration, I guess not.

That being said, I'd be perfectly happy with 9-10 inches of penetration
haaaaaaaaaa a penis joke :D

gunsmith
07-11-2008, 12:11 PM
I love my Glock, that being said, I really want a Wilson Combat or similar.

FlyingPen
07-11-2008, 12:24 PM
Interesting to note that 77 of 87 penetrated at least 12 inches in clothed gelatin.

Four of the ten lowest penetrating rounds were 115gr 9mm +P and +P+, which is interesting because we're always (apparently incorrectly) saying that light, fast-moving 9mm overpenetrates and kills innocent civilians, girl scouts, pregnant ladies, etc standing behind the BG. With 9-10" of penetration, I guess not.

That being said, I'd be perfectly happy with 9-10 inches of penetration
haaaaaaaaaa a penis joke :D

I think I remember reading that given the same mass, an object traveling faster when it hits a fluid will actually have more energy resisting it than the same object traveling slower when it hits fluid.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this but it might be true.

What's sort of confusing is that guy with the funky name who is a police instructor... It sounds Middle Eastern but my mind is totally blanking right now actually did not advocate 147gr 9mm HPs which actually performed very well in the tests.


I'll stick to my .45s. Especially with Federal HST ammo. It's more effective than .40 S&W and I think it the recoil is less harsh.

I still don't understand why they would be going to a Glock when you have USP Tacticals and Compact Tacticals in .45 in inventory.


I can see Glocks perhaps exceeding the capability of HKs in extreme sand testing, IE, multiple and constant sand storms with no lubrication. Also, the fact that they're so modular and simple would make field repairs a piece of cake. Don't get me wrong, HKs are as reliable as a teenager getting a boner at a nude beach but they are pretty complex little machines.

Glock22Fan
07-11-2008, 1:41 PM
What's sort of confusing is that guy with the funky name who is a police instructor... It sounds Middle Eastern but my mind is totally blanking right now actually did not advocate 147gr 9mm HPs which actually performed very well in the tests.


Massad Ayoob?

lehn20
07-29-2008, 12:15 PM
Sounds like nothing but a rumor