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View Full Version : Rock Salt Shells - Legal?


ZapThyCat
07-06-2008, 12:11 AM
I sure would like some Rock Salt Shells, but I'm not totally sure they're legal. I have no reason to think they're not, but it's worth checking on these things.

Does anyone have a reloader that can make some of these? It would be nice to have some less-than-lethal rounds that sure would put a hurt on the bad guy....

G17GUY
07-06-2008, 12:18 AM
Just hand load some; These days they could be more of a legal problem more than anything if you ask me.

moulton
07-06-2008, 12:20 AM
Pro-tip: Dead people don't sue.....use buckshot :cool:

Crusader
07-06-2008, 12:22 AM
The Box-O-Truth did a test with rocksalt shells, and if I remember correctly, they only punched holes in paper at about 5-10 feet, and even then it was only a couple holes. Basically they're completely ineffective.

I've heard of rocksalt shells being used during the early 20th century, but as far as I can tell, they're useless. Or rocksalt was on roids back in 1926.

But as said before, if you really want them, you can hand load them.

BillCA
07-06-2008, 1:06 AM
Rock salt shells are part urban-legend and part truth. Some farmers did keep a few loaded like that to impart "wisdom" to youngsters (teens) using their lands for partying and carousing. At close range it'll sting like the dickens and at closer range get under the skin. And just the fact that Farmer John popped off a round was enough to convince young hooligans to take flight.

Downside today:
1. Trouble from the DA. If it wasn't a life threatening situation, you were still discharging a firearm, likely without being able to claim self-defense.

2. The DA can still classify it as a "deadly weapon" even loaded with rock salt because it fits the definition (projectiles, exploding gas, etc.)

3. As our training indicates, the only time you should use a firearm in in lawful self-defense. Not to "scare off" an intruder or give that back yard tresspasser "a lesson". Using rock-salt loads can be construed as wanting to "punish" someone outside of lawful self-defense.

If you want LTL loads, PMC, Federal and several other companies load rubber-ball buckshot. They're expensive though. (For that money, you should get buckshot-sized superballs! :D)

ViPER395
07-06-2008, 2:12 AM
What about those 12-gauge pepper rounds?

I saw them listed somewhere. Whats the deal with those?

Ballistic043
07-06-2008, 6:27 AM
3. As our training indicates, the only time you should use a firearm in in lawful self-defense. Not to "scare off" an intruder or give that back yard tresspasser "a lesson".



well, personally if an intruder is inside my house, you should know there will be a gun close by. if it means putting the sights between his eyes and scaring him off, then good, get off my property. he can call the cops if he wants to afterward

"officer, i broke into this guys house and he pointed a gun at me...."


i think you should re-iterate your saying to "the only time you should DISCHARGE a firearm..."

-hanko
07-06-2008, 7:03 AM
It would be nice to have some less-than-lethal rounds that sure would put a hurt on the bad guy....
Wrong philosophy for home defense;)

-hanko

Beelzy
07-06-2008, 7:20 AM
Rock salt loads may be construed as "cruel and unusual".

Beanbags are however politically correct. I keep a beanie for the first round
then buck for the rest. I'll be aiming for the head so even a bean bag will
incapacitate if I don't wish to kill the invader.

Dead criminals don't sue, but their loser next of kin does. ;)

Rob454
07-06-2008, 9:46 AM
Pro-tip: Dead people don't sue.....use buckshot :cool:


Youre right. but their families do.

BlackDrop50
07-06-2008, 10:09 AM
Rubber Buckshot??

sorensen440
07-06-2008, 10:19 AM
Dead men tell no tails in court
Its preferred to be the only witness

Explicit
07-06-2008, 10:21 AM
I don't think i would want to shoot salt out of my shotgun. I would think that would screw up the barrel if not cleaned right?

sorensen440
07-06-2008, 10:22 AM
Rubber Buckshot??

I have a box of s&b rubber ball rounds that I purchased as a curiosity
man would that hurt !
went through a piece of plywood at 10 yards

Harbinger
07-06-2008, 10:27 AM
I'll be aiming for the head so even a bean bag will
incapacitate if I don't wish to kill the invader

After you've been jostled awake by breaking glass, scrambled for your gun, can't find the light, half (or un-) dressed, disoriented... you meet a silhouette, running for you in the hallway. You have 1/500th of a second to fire.

Sure, I can see a carefully aimed shot at the head. I can see it missing, hitting the wall, his leg, his shoulder and only pissing him off as he takes your shotgun away in the ensuing struggle.

As gun owners, we can envision all sorts of awesome optimum scenarios for self defense. The only one you're going to get is the one you don't suspect.

Don't mess around with less-than-lethal.

Mike

bohoki
07-06-2008, 11:02 AM
rock salt should only be used on neighbors dogs who are poopin in your back yard

ZapThyCat
07-06-2008, 11:25 AM
Wrong philosophy for home defense;)
-hanko

I can't say I was thinking "home defense". I would like them just in case.

In case of what? I'm not exactly sure. I wouldn't feel great about killing a drunk that mistook this house for his own, and tried getting in. That happens more often than you might think...

When defending my family, I don't want to mess around, I will defend them with maximum force. But if no one's well being is at stake, or if I wanted to take someone alive, or... anything else, I would like them on hand just in case.

*shrug*

gunsnrovers
07-06-2008, 11:26 AM
Good luck with that. You're discharging a firearm at someone. Either they deserve it or they don't.:rolleyes:

sloguy
07-06-2008, 11:57 AM
Good luck with that. You're discharging a firearm at someone. Either they deserve it or they don't.:rolleyes:

pretty much.

cat, what do you mean just in case? paint one reasonable situation where the salt option is viable.


however, since we are talking about the obsurd, why not a salt slug? get better range with that. definately would tear up the skin better than loose salt.

maybe the farmers in older days soaked porous 'actual rocks' in salt and loaded those. that might get under the skin better than plain salt chunks and still carry enough salt on em to sting bad. but at that rate, soaking rocks in pepper oil would hurt alot too.

gotgunz
07-06-2008, 3:53 PM
After you've been jostled awake by breaking glass, scrambled for your gun, can't find the light, half (or un-) dressed, disoriented... you meet a silhouette, running for you in the hallway. You have 1/500th of a second to fire.

Sure, I can see a carefully aimed shot at the head. I can see it missing, hitting the wall, his leg, his shoulder and only pissing him off as he takes your shotgun away in the ensuing struggle.

As gun owners, we can envision all sorts of awesome optimum scenarios for self defense. The only one you're going to get is the one you don't suspect.

Don't mess around with less-than-lethal.

Mike

Which may explain why so many of the "tacticool operators" on this forum spend their evenings running defensive drills in their homes..... :rolleyes:

Mikeb
07-06-2008, 5:26 PM
According to one authority, Joan Baez the proper load is
" and they load up their shotguns with rock salt and nails"
I believe that the feeling is that nails break the skin and the salt adds injury to injury.
But, then your back to the old problem of 2 storys in a shooting, you say he says.
If your justified in shooting in the first place, it will be much simpler if there is only one story told.
take care
Mike

ZapThyCat
07-07-2008, 1:00 AM
cat, what do you mean just in case? paint one reasonable situation where the salt option is viable.

I can't think of any particular reason...

But perhaps maybe there's a drunk guy trying to get into your house. He's mistaken it for his own place. It happens... it would be nice to drive him off rather than kill him.

sb_pete
07-07-2008, 1:39 AM
I can't think of any particular reason...

But perhaps maybe there's a drunk guy trying to get into your house. He's mistaken it for his own place. It happens... it would be nice to drive him off rather than kill him.

A drunk guy stumbles onto your porch thinking its his front door and you blast him with a 12ga salt load?:eek: That's just friggin' mean, man.

You think about trying a bright flashlight? Or maybe just telling him to f*ck off?;)

I once lived in a college party area and was out having a fun night when some dude who was staying down the street stumbled into my apartment, made himself some spaghetti (I mean from scratch, not leftovers), and sat down to eat and watch TV. My room-mate (I lived in the apartment with 4 other guys) came home and asked him who he knew there. The guy answered wrong and my room-mate exploded and screamed at him, threatening him if he moved while calling the cops, who took the dude to the drunk tank. Now, you might say "damn right!" or what not, but I felt bad for the dude. He was just wasted and really thought he was in the right house. He hadn't been living at the place a few buildings down for very long and they look close enough. He didn't mean any harm and wasn't confrontational with my room-mate. Actually he was kind of meek and just sat there in awe of the trouble he found himself in.

In any case, I thought it was bad enough that my room-mate had the guy's a$s hauled off to jail for the night. Are you saying you would have just blasted the poor f#cker while he ate spaghetti watching TV?:eek:

On another note, read the Box-O'-Truth article on rock salt loads. They are a myth. Use pepper spray or rubber bullets if you want LTL.

-Pete

m24armorer
07-07-2008, 2:37 AM
OK, the real deal....

Take a low base shell, open the top and remove the shot. Pack it with rock salt and carpet tacks then seal it up with bacon grease.

Don't ask me how I know, it has something to do with Sunkist growers back in the 60's


I still have scars from stealing oranges.

randy
07-07-2008, 6:04 AM
Beezly with your load out and shot placement you are fired from my wingman list.

Get some training.

Beelzy
07-07-2008, 6:35 AM
Beezly with your load out and shot placement you are fired from my wingman list.

Get some training.

I fly alone anyway, and keep a pistol for primary defense not a Shottie. ;)

It is interesting how many folks go right to the kill for home defense.

How many here (non LEO) have actually drawn down on someone?? Hmmm?

mooster
07-07-2008, 7:49 AM
Non-lethal systems are nice as they give additional options for the user. They are not really useful for the homeowner however. The engagement timelines for LEO/military are different and not as applicable to home defense situations. With LEO, they will respond to an unknown situation with their standard weapons at ready. Based off of the situation (distance, environment, threat to themselves and others) they may switch to a non-lethal option. Note that when they do this, there is usually overwatch with lethal systems at ready. In a home defense scenario, the timeline is greatly accelerated and you donít normally have backup.

I'll be aiming for the head so even a bean bag will
incapacitate if I don't wish to kill the invader.
If you do decide to have a non-lethal option, donít aim for the head. Your point of aim should be at the thighs and stomach. Less preferred target areas include the chest and legs. The head is an absolute NO GO as this has a very high probability of killing the subject or causing permanent and damage.

Also, you really need a rifled barrel for bean bag rounds. They take several yards to open up and stabilize. If they don't open up (and it has happened) they behave similar to a slug and are lethal. A sock round would be a better choice for closer range.

Pack it with rock salt and carpet tacks then seal it up with bacon grease.
Yeesh! When that bacon grease goes rancid you'll have KE plus malodorant effects in one round!

sorensen440
07-07-2008, 8:15 AM
OK, the real deal....

Take a low base shell, open the top and remove the shot. Pack it with rock salt and carpet tacks then seal it up with bacon grease.

Don't ask me how I know, it has something to do with Sunkist growers back in the 60's


I still have scars from stealing oranges.

lol im sure your not advocating actually doing this but does anyone have any idea what kinda damage the wad can do at close range?
I know my non leathal rounds ( that i did not buy to ever use on people ) have a special plastic wad that looks kinda like a spring ( im assuming so it doesnt do any damage itself

Two Shots
07-07-2008, 8:41 AM
I fly alone anyway, and keep a pistol for primary defense not a Shottie. ;)

It is interesting how many folks go right to the kill for home defense.

How many here (non LEO) have actually drawn down on someone?? Hmmm?

I've had to draw down twice, Under two different situations and did not need to fire a shot. One guy thought better and ran from the house another person tried to come into my apartment at 3am pounding on the door, I thought it was one of my friends (Drunk) and opened the door. Told the guy wrong place now leave, He argued and said he was coming in and he reached into his pocket and I told him I'd shoot his ***,then he pulled his knife out, At that point the pistol came up and was cocked and pointed at his head. He looked at the gun dropped his knife and started saying he was sorry and took off. Cops said he was just high/drunk and never caught him.

saki302
07-08-2008, 7:00 AM
We experimented with rock salt loads about 15years ago. Pure rock salt wouldn't work- there isn't enough mass, and combustion is incomplete (leaves a bunch of unburnt crap in your barrel). Velocity is dismal- you could probably catch it in a fishnet at 10 feet.

I suspect a rock salt load made with black powder would work much better- it doesn't require as high if a pressure to combust nicely.

-Dave

ZapThyCat
07-08-2008, 7:56 AM
A drunk guy stumbles onto your porch thinking its his front door and you blast him with a 12ga salt load?:eek: That's just friggin' mean, man.
You think about trying a bright flashlight? Or maybe just telling him to f*ck off?;)
I once lived in a college party area and was out having a fun night when some dude who was staying down the street stumbled into my apartment, made himself some spaghetti (I mean from scratch, not leftovers), and sat down to eat and watch TV.

Drunk and/or high folks don't always realize they are in the wrong apartment. There's a big difference between 4-5 college guys living in a dorm or so, and MY house. If I hear someone cooking downstairs, and my wife is with me in bed... and I can account for my toddler in his room (living quarters are upstairs) I am going down with a bit more than a flashlight. I would like something less than lethal (if they sound like they're cooking, they may not have ill intentions). I can't say the guy in an apron reeking of booze was about to attack me when I shot him in the back with 00 buck...

But if rocksalt is a myth anyway, then it's a moot point. Maybe just the sound of me chambering a load will get him to flee in terror, wondering why his apartment was invaded... the real fun would begin when he called the police on me, telling them it was his place :)

E. Fudd
07-08-2008, 11:20 AM
+1 Bean bags can be lethal at close range (typical indoor distances). Blunt trauma to the head or heart can be fatal. Think of it as a baton strike. Less lethal targets are thighs, stomach, pelvis area (ouch! That's gotta hurt...).

I think the minimum distance to deploy beanbag loads is something like 15 yards, maybe a tad less?

I saw a demo of bean bag load at close range (under 5 yds.) and I was convinced that they are indeed potentially fatal.

Plus, if you aim for the head, even if you don't kill the guy or put him into a coma, you might blind the guy or give him brain damage. Can you image yourself in court being sued by a brain damaged, blind plaintiff in a wheelchair, with his lawyer claiming the poor victim was just confused and went to the wrong house....

Same goes for salt, rubber balls, rubber bullet loads... The chance of blinding someone, injury, subsequent lawsuits, etc. is just not worth it. It's either is a justifiable self-defense use of lethal force situation or it's not. If you are just trying to get someone to go away, yell, scream, use your command presence, use The Force, poop in your pants and run towards him with open arms, drooling.... :eek:

:D

mooster
07-08-2008, 11:44 AM
Beanbags normally deploy by 10 yards. Sock rounds are good down to around 5yds. As with anything, there are statistical variances associated with the round itself and the target. Some folks can take 20 hits with a sock round before taking a hint whereas others (like me) fall over as soon as you point the shotgun in my general direction.

CHS
07-08-2008, 2:00 PM
A friend of mine developed a cartridge in his head that he desperately wanted to patent, called the "Irritator".

His concept was a hermetically sealed capsule which would break apart upon leaving the barrel that was filled with sand and pig poop. (edited, looks like I used a bad word)

It wasn't for self defense, it wasn't for warnings, it was for when you wanted to be just plain mean :)

jmlivingston
07-08-2008, 3:12 PM
The guy who taught reloading at my middle school used rock salt loads in a 12ga to chase off ornery dogs who wandered on his property. Said it worked every time.

John

sb_pete
07-08-2008, 8:38 PM
Drunk and/or high folks don't always realize they are in the wrong apartment... (if they sound like they're cooking, they may not have ill intentions). I can't say the guy in an apron reeking of booze was about to attack me when I shot him in the back with 00 buck...

LOL, yeah, that would be a little more than excessive force. I was just pointing out that sometimes the mere threat of force can be very effective. One should, of course, be able to follow through with that threat. But there is such a thing as trigger happy. I can see using a pepper/tear-gas load or blunt force LTL shell as the first load in a pump action HD shotgun. Heck there might even be advantages to doing so. I just can't see rock salt (even if it worked as advertised) as anything more than an old-school angry farmer "teach them durned kids to eat MY oranges" thing. YMMV of course.

The apartment story (normal apartment, not dorms though) was really just for comic relief. There is definitely something more "near and dear" about a place in which your little ones are sleeping. I was just laughing at the image of some poor drunken dude fiddling with his keys when the door opens. He thinks his wife is letting him in only to find a face full of "pre-emptive" rock salt :eek:.

On another note, there may be something to the theory that it was black powder cartridges with something else like carpet tacks in there. Anyone want to test and post results?

-Pete

tunder
07-08-2008, 10:48 PM
Rock salt tested here with poor results.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm

In my opinion, this would count as a possibly non justifiable use of force here in Missouri. The only time a firearm defense is excused is when your life is felt to be in imminant danger. The use of "non-lethal" ammo is questionable.

tombinghamthegreat
07-09-2008, 11:27 AM
It would be nice to have some less-than-lethal rounds that sure would put a hurt on the bad guy....

That is a bad mind set to have for home defense. Use buck shot.

Guntech
07-09-2008, 1:43 PM
I sure would like some Rock Salt Shells, but I'm not totally sure they're legal. I have no reason to think they're not, but it's worth checking on these things.

Does anyone have a reloader that can make some of these? It would be nice to have some less-than-lethal rounds that sure would put a hurt on the bad guy....

Load some shells with airsoft bbs no recoil at all and really fun to shoot...not that I do that...it does more damage than rock salts

KTGunner
07-10-2008, 3:04 AM
Unfortunately putting a "hurt" on the bad guy doesn't really work in court.....
If you really want to scare someone, just get a laser on the front of you HD gun and rack a round into the chamber. Even if it just points in the general direction of the drunk or whomever, anyone who has seen and Hollywood shot 'em up will piss their pants if the see a gun with a laser. I'm not sure why, but lasers just make guns look scarier.
I've actually seen that work with a Taser as well. The unfortunate thing about Tasers is they don't come with ten-round magazines. :57:

Sugarfoot47
07-10-2008, 5:04 PM
I can understand not wanting to use lethal force against someone who was drunk or high and appeared he didn't know it was your house he was in. However, depending on how drunk or high the individual is,he can also become more unpredictable and irrational in their state of mind. I could tell him to leave and most likely he will especially if I have a shotgun pointed at him, or he may take that as an effort on my part to suppress him from doing whatever he feels like doing, and regardless of the firearm, his inflated ego makes him decide to grab the fireplace poker out of it's rack in my living room and attempt to take a couple of whacks at my skull. This kind of scenario can unfold in the space of less than ten seconds, so at this point I'm not thinking about legalities. I agree with what was mentioned in an earlier post, less lethal round backed up by buckshot for sure, if not lethal rounds all the way.

CSACANNONEER
07-11-2008, 4:40 PM
OK, the real deal....

Take a low base shell, open the top and remove the shot. Pack it with rock salt and carpet tacks then seal it up with bacon grease.

Don't ask me how I know, it has something to do with Sunkist growers back in the 60's


I still have scars from stealing oranges.

I guess the farmers in Oregon forgot the tacks. 60+ years ago, while my dad was visiting relatives in Oregon, his cousins took him on a watermelon patch raid. According to him, rocksalt can be a very good deterent. Personally, I'll believe my dad and m24armorer over any "test" that shows rocksalt doesn't work. Of course, in todays world, I would NEVER shoot anyone unless, I need to kill them to protect myself or another innocent person. Let their next of kin sue me. It'll be better for me if there is only one version of the truth for a jury to hear.