What is the deal with this talk about no more lead bullets in CA?

[Rac97crawford]

Hey guys I'm alittle unclear about this ban. Is it actually in effect right now? And weather it is in effect or proposed, what are the restrictions? Only no lead while hunting? what about plinking, target shooting, the range etc?

[jamesob]

no hunting everything else is good.

[C.G.]

no hunting with lead bullets in condor areas, everything else is good.

Fixed it for ya.:)

[Beelzy]

Which pretty much covers any good hunting areas in California.

Do not get caught in posession of lead ammo when hunting in those
areas either. ;)

[tenpercentfirearms]

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

[Ding126]

The report stated that you can no longer use lead bullets in an outlined area on a map of Ca. This is to protect the Calif. Condor.

They claim that if a hunter uses the lead bullets and IF the condor eats the animal, it will get lead poisoning.

I am not aware of any hunters who shoots an animal and leaves it...Maybe they are more concerned with the squirrels & ground squirrel shoots with 22's??

Who knows?

[ohsmily]

The report stated that you can no longer use lead bullets in an outlined area on a map of Ca. This is to protect the Calif. Condor.

They claim that if a hunter uses the lead bullets and IF the condor eats the animal, it will get lead poisoning.

I am not aware of any hunters who shoots an animal and leaves it...Maybe they are more concerned with the squirrels & ground squirrel shoots with 22's??

Who knows?

If you hunt you know that often times, people will leave the offal (all the guts and waste parts) of the animal in the field. While it is a load of BS, the argument is that lead in these parts will poison condors. There have been no studies conducted indicating that this is the cause of any problem in the condors. Just another way to make it harder to be a gun owner and hunt in CA.

[ptoguy2002]

I have a feeling we are going to get a lot of these "since when can't we use lead ammo in california anymore" from noobs in the future.

[bernieb90]

Interestingly enough lead airgun pellets are not covered by the ban. You can leave hundreds of squirrels with lead airgun pellets stuck in them all you want, but you will be popped for a .22 bullet.

[DougH9]

"There have been no studies conducted indicating that this is the cause of any problem in the condors. Just another way to make it harder to be a gun owner and hunt in CA."

Al Gore said it is so. The debate is over.

[Army]

However, nothing stops you from using all the lead you want while target shooting.......just make sure you actually have a legitimate practice target while shooting in that particular direction.

[robbor]

You will find that this is the prelude to no more target shooting, just like in angeles forest. I cant wait till im out hunting with moly bullets and get to argue that that the gray is not lead. Im still waiting on the regulation to see what lead is allowed on. I thought i saw cottontail rabbits were supposed to be ok, but??? I also thought law also says they can have you fire a round, confiscate a round or even your gun. I would think that if you fired a 22 through a barrel that you had shot lead through without cleaning you would show lead on the bullet.

[RAD-CDPII]

The report stated that you can no longer use lead bullets in an outlined area on a map of Ca. This is to protect the Calif. Condor.

They claim that if a hunter uses the lead bullets and IF the condor eats the animal, it will get lead poisoning.

I am not aware of any hunters who shoots an animal and leaves it...Maybe they are more concerned with the squirrels & ground squirrel shoots with 22's??

Who knows?

Yea, the people who shoot for pest controll will now have to use poison, makes sense. So instead of the slim possibility of lead poisoning, they will get it from the poison used to kill the varments. Gotta love their logic.

[rbgaynor]

If you hunt you know that often times, people will leave the offal (all the guts and waste parts) of the animal in the field. While it is a load of BS, the argument is that lead in these parts will poison condors. There have been no studies conducted indicating that this is the cause of any problem in the condors. Just another way to make it harder to be a gun owner and hunt in CA.

Actually the study most often quoted is the one published in July of 2006 in Environmental Science & Technology that matched a particular isotope of lead commonly found in bullets to the lead found in wild condors. Twenty of 26 condors sampled had high lead levels, and many exceeded levels toxic to humans. Captive birds did not show elevated levels. Not 100% conclusive, but not "junk" science either.

[xrMike]

If you hunt you know that often times, people will leave the offal (all the guts and waste parts) of the animal in the field. While it is a load of BS, the argument is that lead in these parts will poison condors. There have been no studies conducted indicating that this is the cause of any problem in the condors. Just another way to make it harder to be a gun owner and hunt in CA.Last weekend at the Laguna Seca firing range, some condor preservation group hosted a "new bullet" demo for the public. They put on a couple of demonstrations, and provided free rounds in your typical hunting calibers, for people to try out. A bunch of hunting enthusiasts showed up.

One of their demonstrations involved shooting one of these new copper bullets through four 1-gallon water jugs that were lined up end-to-end inside a plastic 55-gallon barrel. The barrel was set on a stand, with its end facing the shooter, and the bottom was cut out. Inside the barrel was a plastic shelf, and the water jugs were lined up on that shelf.

The idea was to put a round through the first jug, see how many jugs were penetrated, and also see if any fragments were created . The fragments would supposedly collect inside the barrel, under the shelf. The guy was using a .308 I think (not sure, but it was a big-*** slug).

They also shot a typical lead core hunting round through a second barrel that was set up exactly the same way.

After the 2 rounds were fired, everybody went down range to check the results.

The copper round penetrated into the 4th jug. It had mushroomed into 4 perfect jagged petals, peeled back halfway down the length of the round. Their were NO fragments anywhere inside the barrel. The slug looked like it had retained its full weight. The round was passed around, and all of the hunter types seemed very impressed, as it looked very lethal, with the petals having sharp cutting edges.

The lead round stopped inside the 3rd jug. It mushroomed out well enough, but you could tell by looking that it did not attain the same diameter as the copper bullet. It was not as jagged looking either, but more rounded at the cutting edges. Most interesting though, were the fragments inside the barrel. There must have been 20-30 little tiny lead pieces inside the barrel, below the jugs, ranging in size from a match head to some just barely visible.

I'm no fan of the condor. It's a stupid bird that should probably be extinct. However, there is definitely truth to the fact that high-powered lead rounds create a LOT of fragmentation that gets dispersed in the carcass.

These new copper bullets appear to hold together really well and create a very lethal-looking slug.

I hear what you're saying (there MIGHT be a lack of conclusive hard science linking lead bullets to condor poisioning), but based on what I saw, I'd say it's highly probable that lead bullets cause problems for the condor. And even if I didn't give a damn about the condor, as a hunter, I'd be a little leery of eating my own kill.

[yellowfin]

Lead in game animals consumed by humans was an issue...when? When exactly in the last 200 years was it ever a documented problem?

[Nahuatl]

Actually the study most often quoted is the one published in July of 2006 in Environmental Science & Technology that matched a particular isotope of lead commonly found in bullets to the lead found in wild condors. Twenty of 26 condors sampled had high lead levels, and many exceeded levels toxic to humans. Captive birds did not show elevated levels. Not 100% conclusive, but not "junk" science either.

I thought junk science was a pretty good description. Church's master's thesis lacked a lot of quality control - or at least she didn't publish anything that led me to believe she'd done due diligence in the lab when I read it. There were plenty of things missing I would have like to have seen including no blanks, no spiked samples, no recovery percentages, no duplicates, no lab certification, and no verification by another lab. She used only Winchester and Remington brand bullets from Big 5 or donated by a very few hunters. And in the end, she used a complex mixing equation to totally massage the data to fit the conclusion. Grad students are under a lot of pressure to produce the result their advisor and funding expects. And it was so nice of the bird people to support her in her research. EPA and Health Services would not have accepted her data based on the lack of quality control.

Let me add this. I think lead is toxic. I'd like to see a non-toxic alternative that gets the job done and doesn't break the bank. The bullet companies would like to see the liabilities go away and their work force protected. But I didn't like junk science being force fed to me like buckshot to a caged buzzard just to prove the point.

[xrMike]

Lead in game animals consumed by humans was an issue...when? When exactly in the last 200 years was it ever a documented problem?It's interesting that you bring that up, because when everybody was standing around the barrels and inspecting the test rounds, I was thinking the same thing, so I asked the condor group rep: "How come lead fragmentation/poisoning was never an issue 200 years, or 100 years ago, when many people depended on wild game as a main part of their diet?"

His answer: "Back then, when they were muzzle-loading, and even during the times of the early metallic cartridges, the velocity of their slugs wasn't nearly as high as it is now, with today's modern firearms and rounds. So they didn't fragment much, and stayed mostly intact."

Now is that answer true or satisfactory? I don't know, but that's what the condor side says. It is a good question.

I can tell you there were PLENTY of lead fragments in that barrel.

[chris]

what type of lead round were they using. if they were using a CoreLokt bullet that is what happens. that bullet sucks. i have used hornaday bullets for years and i have not seen what was described. i know the barnes bullets are of good quality and do not dipsute their accuracy. they are good. its the all or nothing policies of this state is what sucks. a better solution would have been to encourage people to use non lead in that area and it would have been recieved in a better light. but banning things is the norm in this state. facts are not needed at all for this type of crap.

the condor should die out and do us a favor. i still think this ban is a camels nose under the tent tactic that we have seen and it's in the tent. time to give it a bloody nose.

[rbgaynor]

I thought junk science was a pretty good description. Church's master's thesis lacked a lot of quality control - or at least she didn't publish anything that led me to believe she'd done due diligence in the lab when I read it. There were plenty of things missing I would have like to have seen including no blanks, no spiked samples, no recovery percentages, no duplicates, no lab certification, and no verification by another lab. She used only Winchester and Remington brand bullets from Big 5 or donated by a very few hunters. And in the end, she used a complex mixing equation to totally massage the data to fit the conclusion. Grad students are under a lot of pressure to produce the result their advisor and funding expects. And it was so nice of the bird people to support her in her research. EPA and Health Services would not have accepted her data based on the lack of quality control.

Let me add this. I think lead is toxic. I'd like to see a non-toxic alternative that gets the job done and doesn't break the bank. The bullet companies would like to see the liabilities go away and their work force protected. But I didn't like junk science being force fed to me like buckshot to a caged buzzard just to prove the point.

Let me first say that I think for the most part we are in agreement. I think the industry would love a reasonable "non-lead" solution, and I think Don Saba raises some legitimate concerns about Church's research. I was merely responding to the OP's comment that "There have been no studies" when in fact there is a reviewed study out there.

[Army]

I was merely responding to the OP's comment that "There have been no studies" when in fact there is a reviewed study out there.
But a terrifically flawed, and exceedingly biased "study, is no study at all.

To conclude with no proof, no repeatability, no peer review, and no tangible evidence....is an opinion.

The fragments left in flesh, should be killing every duck and bird hunter there ever was. If the birds had alleged human lethal levels of lead toxins due to fragments, then the tons of lead eaten by bird hunters should be pandemic.

Did anyone question the need for such excessive penetration by the metal solid bullets, when the normal bullets would stay in the animal and be recovered?

All a bunch of hooey, aimed strictly to outlaw hunting and guns in this state.

[xrMike]

The fragments left in flesh, should be killing every duck and bird hunter there ever was. If the birds had alleged human lethal levels of lead toxins due to fragments, then the tons of lead eaten by bird hunters should be pandemic.You'd think that would be true, and the question is a good one.

The only thing is, there may be other biological or physiological factors at play here. For example, I'm not saying this is true, but what if...

What if metallic lead ingested by humans passes through the digestive system fairly quickly, too quickly for any appreciable amount to leach into the body?

I know that some birds, like the condor, have a "gullet", which is a part of the stomach that contains small stones or natural sand that they ingest, and which stays there in the gizzard for long periods of time, to help them break down and digest their food. What if ingested lead stays in their gizzard long enough to cause problems for them?

I don't know if that is true, but I'm just saying, there may be factors at play which make comparisons between condors and humans sketchy.

Anyway, condors are really stupid birds, no doubt, maybe they SHOULD be extinct. I know at least a couple of them have died from ingesting all kinds of garbage, like bottle caps, etc:

http://www.fws.gov/hoppermountain/Field%20Notes/FieldNotes2002.html

[Subvertz]

When the last condor dies, can we switch back to lead?

[M. Sage]

Last weekend at the Laguna Seca firing range, some condor preservation group hosted a "new bullet" demo for the public. They put on a couple of demonstrations, and provided free rounds in your typical hunting calibers, for people to try out. A bunch of hunting enthusiasts showed up.

One of their demonstrations involved shooting one of these new copper bullets through four 1-gallon water jugs that were lined up end-to-end inside a plastic 55-gallon barrel. The barrel was set on a stand, with its end facing the shooter, and the bottom was cut out. Inside the barrel was a plastic shelf, and the water jugs were lined up on that shelf.

The idea was to put a round through the first jug, see how many jugs were penetrated, and also see if any fragments were created . The fragments would supposedly collect inside the barrel, under the shelf. The guy was using a .308 I think (not sure, but it was a big-*** slug).

They also shot a typical lead core hunting round through a second barrel that was set up exactly the same way.

After the 2 rounds were fired, everybody went down range to check the results.

The copper round penetrated into the 4th jug. It had mushroomed into 4 perfect jagged petals, peeled back halfway down the length of the round. Their were NO fragments anywhere inside the barrel. The slug looked like it had retained its full weight. The round was passed around, and all of the hunter types seemed very impressed, as it looked very lethal, with the petals having sharp cutting edges.

The lead round stopped inside the 3rd jug. It mushroomed out well enough, but you could tell by looking that it did not attain the same diameter as the copper bullet. It was not as jagged looking either, but more rounded at the cutting edges. Most interesting though, were the fragments inside the barrel. There must have been 20-30 little tiny lead pieces inside the barrel, below the jugs, ranging in size from a match head to some just barely visible.

I'm no fan of the condor. It's a stupid bird that should probably be extinct. However, there is definitely truth to the fact that high-powered lead rounds create a LOT of fragmentation that gets dispersed in the carcass.

These new copper bullets appear to hold together really well and create a very lethal-looking slug.

I hear what you're saying (there MIGHT be a lack of conclusive hard science linking lead bullets to condor poisioning), but based on what I saw, I'd say it's highly probable that lead bullets cause problems for the condor. And even if I didn't give a damn about the condor, as a hunter, I'd be a little leery of eating my own kill.

This is junk science in and of itself.

First, let me say that I grew up eating game that was killed by family members. Where our hunting grounds were in Michigan, we had to use shotguns, and for deer we usually preferred buckshot. I've bitten down into dinner more than once and found lead shot. You just learn to chew carefully to avoid harming your teeth, and if you find something, you just spit it out. Sometimes we'd find lead that wasn't even ours. Some morons think it's fun to shoot at deer with .22s apparently. :mad: Regardless of what you use, you can still wind up with stuff like bits of bone depending on where you hit the animal...

Lead in your game is not going to harm you, unless you're really wolfing your food down and chip a tooth.

On to the demonstration. Water is very rough on bullets. Copper is harder, so I'm not surprised that it did better in a water test than traditional lead bullets. If they'd tested it in something along the lines of ballistic gelatin, I'd bet that the lead ammo would have retained a lot more weight.

Water is also not a great indicator of expansion and performance. Like I said above, it's hard on bullets, consider it an extreme test of weight retention at the best. Everything expands wonderfully (if it can) when you shoot it into water, which is why a lot of bullets go to pieces in that kind of "test".

The lead ammo they used can make a huge difference, too. Cheaper brands usually have worse performance and don't hold together nearly as well in most cases. Good ammo hunting ammo will retain most of its weight, no matter what it's made of.

That said, I do like the performance of a lot of the copper stuff I've seen shot into gelatin. It does seem to expand nicely and move through with sharp "petals". It's just that it's way too expensive for me to want to hunt with it, since I couldn't afford to do much (if any) practice. A lot of hunting calibers are stupidly expensive enough as it is (*cough*7mm Rem Mag*cough*), adding copper in makes it too much for me.

That and you have to be able to load your own if you want copper in some calibers.

About all this ban has done is to move hunting farther out of the reach of the average person.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Lead in your animals is not dangerous. If it was, I would be dead, my father would have probably died before I was born, and his dad might not have made it either.

Now at the same time, we are not eating the lead like a condor might. We tend to spit lead out of our mouth and not ingest it whereas a condor might eat it all.

However, does the existence of some stupid bird take precedence over the hunting of all of these animals? I don't think it should. Of course our liberal masters think otherwise.

The only good news is as more places require non-lead ammo, the variety should increase and the price should decrease.

[Rob454]

How many rounds do you shoot when hunting? its not like target shooting where you can go through 2-300 rounds in a few hours. yeah condors are not the smartest birds and they were basically extinct but some brainiac decided to bring them back. Unless someone knows of a way to repeal the lead ban looks liek copper rounds are the only option in the condor areas/ jsut seems lame to me when youre still allowed to hunt jackrabbits with lead shot. What woudl of been easier woudl be to tell people they bust bury the guts. Most hunters would have no problem digging a small hole and dumping the guts in and covering it up

[Rac97crawford]

So if I have this straight, you can still hunt with lead in CA just not where this stupid birds lives? And you guys say that is mos of the state. right?

So I've been doing some searching to try and find a map that shows where this birds live and have had no luck. The best I've seen are maps of CA wit like 4 dots in central and southern state.

I'm planning a hunting trip up into the Sierra, near Tahoe and I need to know if that area is a no lead area.

And also does any one have link to suppliers of this non-lead ammo. I saw the one company, (like Barnes, or something). Are they the only one that is making this stuff right now?

If the area I'm going to be hunting is a no lead area then I need 270 WSM. ( I have a terrible feeling if they have that round out yet then it's going to cost me $5.00 a round to shoot... )

[M. Sage]

How many rounds do you shoot when hunting?

Depends on what you're hunting. Shooting ground squirrels or other varmints like that, people seem to be able to go through a lot of ammunition fairly quickly.

It's the practice that bugs me. I'd rather practice with what I'm going to hunt with. "Surprises" in the field aren't good. It's not good to find out that the copper you're hunting with hits several inches higher or lower than the lead you practiced with.

[1911_Mitch]

So if I have this straight, you can still hunt with lead in CA just not where this stupid birds lives? And you guys say that is mos of the state. right?

So I've been doing some searching to try and find a map that shows where this birds live and have had no luck. The best I've seen are maps of CA wit like 4 dots in central and southern state.

I'm planning a hunting trip up into the Sierra, near Tahoe and I need to know if that area is a no lead area.

And also does any one have link to suppliers of this non-lead ammo. I saw the one company, (like Barnes, or something). Are they the only one that is making this stuff right now?

If the area I'm going to be hunting is a no lead area then I need 270 WSM. ( I have a terrible feeling if they have that round out yet then it's going to cost me $5.00 a round to shoot... )


Here is the info from the DFG website:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/Ridley-TreeCondorPreservationAct.pdf


http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

[DougH9]

"when in fact there is a reviewed study out there"

I regard the studies that say that hunter's bullet fragments are killing Condors the same as I do the studies that say that because of man, the earth will in ten years become a scorched, uninhabitable, wasteland (and most of it under water to boot).

In other words: Biased to serve an agenda!

[Rac97crawford]

Thanks Mitch,
That was the info I needed. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. Thank God!! Before I saw the map I was thinking it was most of the state.
But I can see how this is going to effect alot of people that hunt in those area's. I'm sure the new rounds are going to perform ballisticly different than good old lead. Then those people are going to have to either switch out to the expensive copper rounds all together or go back to the range every time they want to switch up.
This really is a stupid law to save 130 or so stupid, ugly, scavenger birds that should have gone out like the Dodo in the 80's. But no! Some damn hippies had to go and round up the last 20 and try to "save a spices" that was already on Ma Earth's chopping block.

[wellfedirishman]

Does anyone actually know where you can buy lead free 22 LR or 22 Mag?

I know Midway lists CCI lead free 22 Mag, but Midway says they wont have any for 2-3 weeks (if they actually get any deliveries).

Thanks for any info, I want to go ground squirrel shooting.

[efmoto]

When the last condor dies, can we switch back to lead?

LOL. My question also

[Fjold]

Does anyone actually know where you can buy lead free 22 LR or 22 Mag?

I know Midway lists CCI lead free 22 Mag, but Midway says they wont have any for 2-3 weeks (if they actually get any deliveries).

Thanks for any info, I want to go ground squirrel shooting.

There is no lead free 22 LR ammunition commercially available, right now.

[bwiese]

This law was brought to you with the assistance of Gun Owners of California (GOC) and its idiot leader Sam Paredes.

[Meplat]

Fixed it for ya.:)


There have not been any CONDORS in D-7 for 10,000 years.

[Meplat]

You will find that this is the prelude to no more target shooting, just like in angeles forest. I cant wait till im out hunting with moly bullets and get to argue that that the gray is not lead. Im still waiting on the regulation to see what lead is allowed on. I thought i saw cottontail rabbits were supposed to be ok, but??? I also thought law also says they can have you fire a round, confiscate a round or even your gun. I would think that if you fired a 22 through a barrel that you had shot lead through without cleaning you would show lead on the bullet.


You are allowed 1% lead. You can shoot small game animals with lead bullets: Gray squerrls, Cottontails. But not "non-game mammles": Ground squerrls, Jack rabbits. Excuse is that people normally take the game animals home and eat them while the non-game animals are left in the field.

It's all stupid anyway. The CONDOR is a left over from the day of the giant ground sloth and the wooly mamoth. If they come down out of the thurmals to eat anything smaller than a mule deer buy the time they get back up it is a net energy loss.

[Meplat]

These bullets are not "new" they are Barns "X" bullets. I have been hunting with them for a couple decades now. My avitar is two of them that I dug out of the sand and gravel behind my target when my 3/4" 5 shot groupe only had four holes. One was run right up the backside of the other. Barnes knows how to make one hell of a bullet. They expand evenly, they usually retain over 95% of their mass. sometimes a pettel will break off but this is very very rare and usually involvs hitting bone. But it's about free choice and these bullets are extreemly costly, not to mention hard to find right now.




Last weekend at the Laguna Seca firing range, some condor preservation group hosted a "new bullet" demo for the public. They put on a couple of demonstrations, and provided free rounds in your typical hunting calibers, for people to try out. A bunch of hunting enthusiasts showed up.

One of their demonstrations involved shooting one of these new copper bullets through four 1-gallon water jugs that were lined up end-to-end inside a plastic 55-gallon barrel. The barrel was set on a stand, with its end facing the shooter, and the bottom was cut out. Inside the barrel was a plastic shelf, and the water jugs were lined up on that shelf.

The idea was to put a round through the first jug, see how many jugs were penetrated, and also see if any fragments were created . The fragments would supposedly collect inside the barrel, under the shelf. The guy was using a .308 I think (not sure, but it was a big-*** slug).

They also shot a typical lead core hunting round through a second barrel that was set up exactly the same way.

After the 2 rounds were fired, everybody went down range to check the results.

The copper round penetrated into the 4th jug. It had mushroomed into 4 perfect jagged petals, peeled back halfway down the length of the round. Their were NO fragments anywhere inside the barrel. The slug looked like it had retained its full weight. The round was passed around, and all of the hunter types seemed very impressed, as it looked very lethal, with the petals having sharp cutting edges.

The lead round stopped inside the 3rd jug. It mushroomed out well enough, but you could tell by looking that it did not attain the same diameter as the copper bullet. It was not as jagged looking either, but more rounded at the cutting edges. Most interesting though, were the fragments inside the barrel. There must have been 20-30 little tiny lead pieces inside the barrel, below the jugs, ranging in size from a match head to some just barely visible.

I'm no fan of the condor. It's a stupid bird that should probably be extinct. However, there is definitely truth to the fact that high-powered lead rounds create a LOT of fragmentation that gets dispersed in the carcass.

These new copper bullets appear to hold together really well and create a very lethal-looking slug.

I hear what you're saying (there MIGHT be a lack of conclusive hard science linking lead bullets to condor poisioning), but based on what I saw, I'd say it's highly probable that lead bullets cause problems for the condor. And even if I didn't give a damn about the condor, as a hunter, I'd be a little leery of eating my own kill.

[Meplat]

I can tell you there were PLENTY of lead fragments in that barrel.

Probably used the ****tyest lead bullet they could find. All bullets are not created equal. I have one of the first run Mini-14s with a real fast twist. if you try to shoot lightly constructed varment bullets in it at anything close to 3000FPS all you get is a gray cloud of lead dust starting about 7 feet from the muzzel and going to about 15 feet. You will also find small fragments of jacket mettel on the ground. The centrifugal force blows them up like a grenade.

[Meplat]

Most hunters would have no problem digging a small hole and dumping the guts in and covering it up

You've never tried to dig a hole in a mountain, have you?:D

[GJJ]

Does anyone have a better map CLEARLY showing the boundaries around the Lone Pine area?

The DFG map looks like it was drawn by retarded 3 year olds. No highways or similar reference points. $5000 fine if you guess wrong.

This law needs to go. Is anyone working on it? What else would you expect from a corrupt government that is too stupid to draw a decent map?

[Sawdust]

Here is a Google Earth map:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/deer/docs/DeerZone52008.kml

HTH,

Sawdust

[chris]

These bullets are not "new" they are Barns "X" bullets. I have been hunting with them for a couple decades now. My avitar is two of them that I dug out of the sand and gravel behind my target when my 3/4" 5 shot groupe only had four holes. One was run right up the backside of the other. Barnes knows how to make one hell of a bullet. They expand evenly, they usually retain over 95% of their mass. sometimes a pettel will break off but this is very very rare and usually involvs hitting bone. But it's about free choice and these bullets are extreemly costly, not to mention hard to find right now.

barnes are not that hard to find. they have a webiste that i know you are aware of. also now this may only be in my area in OC but the Stockade in Garden Grove off of Beach Blvd. has barnes in many callibers. what sucks is that Barnes is the only manufacturer for my 6.5x55 mauser. and you are right they are not cheap at all.

i hope this bird dies out one day and soon.

[Meplat]

barnes are not that hard to find. they have a webiste that i know you are aware of. also now this may only be in my area in OC but the Stockade in Garden Grove off of Beach Blvd. has barnes in many callibers. what sucks is that Barnes is the only manufacturer for my 6.5x55 mauser. and you are right they are not cheap at all.

i hope this bird dies out one day and soon.

Maybe we have a lot of low end reloaders, but they never were very popular in Fresno. You can sometimes find a shop with .30 calibers but good luck with 6.5. I shoot a sweed too. I have to order on line.

The treehuggers with their unreasonable regulations are hurting their cause more than helping it. The code of the west is becoming; "Shoot shovel and shut up."

[Pred@tor]

This tree hugger ammo is expensive thats why I haven't bothered to renew my hunting license.

[Meplat]

This tree hugger ammo is expensive thats why I haven't bothered to renew my hunting license.

But look at all the fun you are missing. I bought a deer tag for the first time in 5 years just to be up there and watch the game wardens try to sort this out. It’s gonna be a hoot. If nothing else take your 22 and tell them your hunting tree squirrels. And you should always buy a hunting license because with all the exemptions for hunters and target shooters that hunting license (and a good lawyer) may just get you out of a jam someday. I belong to a shooting range I almost never use any more for the same reason.

[jmlivingston]

Does anyone have a better map CLEARLY showing the boundaries around the Lone Pine area?


The condor habitat is pretty well defined by deer zones, so look at it that way. You should be good around Lone Pine, as that's pretty much X9b and X9c country, neither of those two zones are included in the condor habitat. Not too sue about X10 though, haven't bothered to look that one up.

John

[11Z50]

As discussed previously, I am totally pissed off about this load of Kalifornia Krap. What I am going to do, and advocate for others to do, is to stop buying anything from the Dept of Fish and Game. I have bought hunting licenses, deer tags, upland game stamps, and all the other BS fees it takes to go hunting for over 40 years. NO MORE!

This lead ammo ban is what pushed me over the edge, but DFG's general way of doing business over the last decade really sux. Many of the wardens I have encountered think it's funny to hassle innocent citizens, and are especially interested in violating their civil rights. They fancy themselves super cops that can do as they please. I have worked on criminal defense cases in which hunters are persecuted and drug into court on multiple felonies which were thrown out of court. I've seen weapons, ammo, and personal property confiscated and never seen again, without receipts or any other paperwork. I've seen citizen's complaints ignored, and the offending officers continue to operate in the same manner.

I used to teach Hunter Ed as a volunteer instructor because I could never find a class in my area and my Daughter needed to get her license. Although Wardens are supposed to teach at least a few courses a year, good luck finding one. They were more than happy to drop by the courses I taught, so they could later claim they had taught them.

By not paying DFG for any licenses or tags, etc, we can send these JBT's a clear message. DFG is funded by proceeds from fees paid by us. With the State already in a fiscal crisis, the way to make our point to these State employees is to make a few take extended vacations for free.

I will miss hunting in my home State, but I'd much rather spend my money in a State that appreciates hunters. The most I'll have to pay for is a CA hunting license and that's it, should I decide to hunt at all.

In the meanwhile I intend to increase my target shooting drastically, and pump as much lead into PRK as possible. I will have my video camera with me as well, just in case DFG wants to check out my ammo. I have an attorney friend that would like to make some $$$$.

Sorry for the rant, but it's time to strike back!!!

[Pred@tor]

But look at all the fun you are missing. I bought a deer tag for the first time in 5 years just to be up there and watch the game wardens try to sort this out. It’s gonna be a hoot. If nothing else take your 22 and tell them your hunting tree squirrels. And you should always buy a hunting license because with all the exemptions for hunters and target shooters that hunting license (and a good lawyer) may just get you out of a jam someday. I belong to a shooting range I almost never use any more for the same reason.

That us true... I just haven't bothered I have bought tags and they expire because I couldnt find no one to go with. I went pig hunting not too long ago either out at Camp Roberts. Didnt see any piggies out there...

I may in the future though but this tree hugger ammo ban makes it discouraging.

[Rob454]

You've never tried to dig a hole in a mountain, have you?:D


What do you hunt on? a granite slab? Ive been in some rocky areas and I can dig a hole especially if I have to crap

[Meplat]

What do you hunt on? a granite slab?
Sometimes

Ive been in some rocky areas and I can dig a hole especially if I have to crap
You got me there. but you must be takin one hell of a crap if you dig a hole bige enough to hide the etrails from a buck