PDA

View Full Version : NRA Coalition's California Plan


CDMichel
06-29-2008, 9:25 AM
The incorporation lawsuits are not the extent of the NRA's plan nationally, nor is the SF suit all that is planned in California. We have a full "dream sheet" of litigation we want to bring, using both the Heller ruling and the Fiscal preemption ruling (Prop H).

NRA is leading and working with like minded civil rights groups including CRPA, CCRKBA, SAF (represented by Alan Gura), GOC, PP and reps from calguns. Hopefully we can hold all the groups together for the long haul. Factionalism is counterproductive. At this stage everyone seems to recognize that overreaching too soon could result in bad precendent not just for California, but nationally.

Some examples of what is coming down the road:

Oakland has already been served with a pre-litigation demand to repeal its "ultra compact handgun" ban. SF's UCH and .50 caliber handgun bans are also in our sights.

A renewed challenge to all or part of the semi-auto ban is also in the works. CRPA has already has significant funding set aside for this effort. TMLLP is coordinating with Calguns on a semi-auto licensing suit, which may include other elements. We can work together on this effort, but we need to time it carefully. This case is probably not the forum to litigate the incorporation issue. Consider how clean the SF ban on guns in publlic housing challenge is -- the SF gun ban is broader than the ban that SCOTUS struck down in Heller. That allows the lawyers on our side to focus the court on the threshold incorporation issue. Until we get that issue resolved, state and local governments are not restricted by the Heller ruling.

I am also in contact with some of the lawyers and groups advancing CCW litigation. This is also a licensing issue, not as clean as challenging a flat out ban.

There are a lot more possibilities. Lawyers are still studying the Heller decision and considering its implications. Ultimately though, any case chalenging a state of local law in California will have to get a hearing before the Ninth Circuit, or perhaps SCOTUS, on the incorporation issue. Hopefully, everyone in the self-defense civil rights community can appreciate the need to get incorporation resolved as quickly and simply as possible before moving to phase two.

I support the fledgling calguns foundation, and encourage you to support it too. You should also know, however, that because of the depth of the legal challenges pending, any California donor making a donation to NRA-ILA, the NRA Civil Rghts Defense Fund (501(c)(3)), CRPA, or CRPA Foundation (501(c)(3)) can count on that money (and then some) being spent in California. Checks made out to those entities can be sent c/o TMLLP for processing to ensure this if you desire. (And yes - you get a free magnet. Come to think of it, I will restock my "Don't Get Screwed by California Gun Laws" screwdriver giveaway and throw one of those in too.)

Although Heller does not go as far as I would have liked, and we were one vote away from re-education camps, we are now looking forward to better days my friends.

PatriotnMore
06-29-2008, 9:37 AM
Chuck, I want to personally thank you for the much needed, and important work you, and others are doing with regards to extremely poor gun laws here in CA.

hoffmang
06-29-2008, 2:44 PM
Everyone should know that as Chuck alludes to, there is a lot of co-ordination to make sure we've got the right folks on the right issues.

Also, donations to The Calguns Foundation will go to supporting suits to advance gun rights in CA and/or defending innocent gun owners who are wrongly charged.

There is a whole lot of pre-litigation work over the next couple of weeks as CGF and everyone else would love to not have to sue to get a lot of the things that we all want.

The first major volleys in this battle that are publicly trackable are Chuck's case and Don Kilmer's Nordyke appeal. Keep your eye on both of those and SAF/Gura in Chicago as well.

It is so much fun to be on the offensive!

-Gene

Paladin
06-29-2008, 7:30 PM
I am glad to read about all the coordinated behind-the-scenes work that the various pro-2nd A RKBA groups are doing to help the PRK rejoin Free America ("Wolverines!"). Some examples of what is coming down the road:

Oakland has already been served with a pre-litigation demand to repeal its "ultra compact handgun" ban. SF's UCH and .50 caliber handgun bans are also in our sights.

If you're looking for other targets, . . .

Berkeley Bans the Sale or Possession of Semi-auto Rifles
Go to: http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=7134
and check out BMC 13.74 in the "Titles 1 through 22" .pdf.

Although Heller does not go as far as I would have liked, and we were one vote away from re-education campsAll too true. I just hope Heller is not strangled in the cradle by a bunch of Obama appointed SC justices. While the legal fight Chuck lays out sounds great, if we lose on the national political scene, it could be a short fight. Watch the first 5 min of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLsDnuxn4S4

oaklander
06-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Awesome work!

:D

nobody_special
06-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Woo-hoo! Thanks for the information, this is an exciting time.

Paladin: that's a bad link, but IIRC the Berkeley ban only applies to long guns; there is an explicit barrel length mentioned. It's definitely an action item and hopefully can be removed without an actual court challenge.

hoffmang pointed out elsewhere that the AWB, normal-capacity magazine ban, and approved handgun list may be open to immediate equal-protection challenges under the 14th amendment -- without incorporation -- since these bans have exceptions LEO in their non-professional capacity. Is this viable or under consideration?

I'm not a California resident yet, but I'll definitely chip in for this good cause!

Paladin
06-30-2008, 12:15 AM
Paladin: that's a bad link, but IIRC the Berkeley ban only applies to long guns; there is an explicit barrel length mentioned. It's definitely an action item and hopefully can be removed without an actual court challenge.Thanks for the corrections. They have been implemented.

Hopefully, it will just cost the amount of certified postage, an envelope, 1 sheet of paper, and 15 minutes of typing for Chuck et al to make Bezerkeley see the error of its ways.

Saigon1965
06-30-2008, 12:21 AM
The news keep getting better.

ivanimal
06-30-2008, 12:48 AM
We are stronger when we stand together. Thanks Chuck and the NRA.

FreshTapCoke
06-30-2008, 1:54 AM
Thank you, and give 'em hell!

bigdave1121
06-30-2008, 2:38 PM
This is a good time to be a gun owner in California.... Very exciting times to come :D

Brooke
06-30-2008, 2:47 PM
I am also in contact with some of the lawyers and groups advancing CCW litigation. This is also a licensing issue, not as clean as challenging a flat out ban.

While it's not as clear as a ban, in effect many CA counties have a de facto ban. How can we possess handguns for self protection, as SCOTUS says is our right, if we have to leave them at home?

At the very least, we need to lose 12031 as to cars.

chris
06-30-2008, 2:55 PM
Chuck-

keeping the community abreast to the extent you can - like in this posting- is huge for us.

we want to know what we can know and how we can help- and I sincerely thank you for taking the time to come on here and give us a heads up.

these are very exciting times.

yes please keep us informed like your post. it helps reduce guessing that a lot here are doing. i'm looking forward to seeing laws in this state meet the shredder and go where they belong.

i do like that all or part of the AWB may get slammed.

keep us up to date as you can.

guns_and_labs
06-30-2008, 4:58 PM
Thank you for the update. Check inbound.

Eric_Oh
06-30-2008, 5:35 PM
Two thumbs up for all your hard work, and thanks for the update. Lets hope the Heller decision is a first in a long line of court decisions to go our way. God knows we've had the legislature working against us for a long time.

bwiese
06-30-2008, 5:39 PM
Thanks, Chuck. (Hi to Jason!)

Forward!

Salty
06-30-2008, 9:56 PM
First off, great news, and thanks for all that has been and will be done. But with all due respect, why doesnít the NRA advertise to the masses to gain more members? How about some bill boards, commercials, etc. Hell, at least hit the conservative talks shows with commercial spots.

Most people donít even realize that the NRA does anything other than fight in court. How about advertising some shooting matches and beginner safety training? The later would help to strengthen the name of the NRA. (personally I wish more gun owners would take a beginners safety class)

Is there a reason we donít see the NRA advertising?

Mallardstacker
06-30-2008, 10:15 PM
Thanks, Chuck for all the hard work and for taking the time to inform us of the upcoming challenges.

I will be adding another payment for my NRA lifetime membership very soon.

All I can say - its GREAT to be part of this group! I haven't been around for a while but I try to keep up when I can.

bwiese
06-30-2008, 10:21 PM
First off, great news, and thanks for all that has been and will be done. But with all due respect, why doesnít the NRA advertise to the masses to gain more members? How about some bill boards, commercials, etc. Hell, at least hit the conservative talks shows with commercial spots.


Cost vs benefit.
You might recall NRA advertised on CNN back in the later 80s. It doesn't now.

NRA does advertise where it gets bang for the buck.

NRA running full-page ads in SF Comicle or NY Times will just be peein' in the wind.

DrFrige
07-01-2008, 1:01 AM
Thank you very much for the update and contributions are on the way as we speak.

I had the honor of meeting Wayne LaPierre back in 2003. I asked him "Why does the NRA not put more of an effort for us in California" He said "We have huge plans for California" well I havent seen much but I still donate to the NRA in hopes that ONE DAY they will. Now with Heller as a major tool in their arsenal, I hope they will clean up alot of the unconstitutional mess that was pushed upon us.

I wish us all luck.

Salty
07-01-2008, 2:52 PM
Cost vs benefit.
You might recall NRA advertised on CNN back in the later 80s. It doesn't now.

NRA does advertise where it gets bang for the buck.

NRA running full-page ads in SF Comicle or NY Times will just be peein' in the wind.

I see what your saying, but I would think that conservative talk shows would provide some bang for the buck. Of course Iím no marketing expert.

Iíve noticed that some ranges have started to advertise on the radio. The message they send is very positive, advertising safety lessons, noting it as a family sport, etc. That puts a smile on my face and I believe it does a lot of good in changing the way some folks think about firearms. Advertise shooting as a sport, and you no longer pee in the wind when talking to the PETA or the ďjust call 911Ē types. Letís face it, some people will never agree with hunting, or self defense, but I think everyone enjoys a good time.

Anyway, enough rambling. I think you get what I'm sayin. :)

6172crew
07-01-2008, 3:04 PM
It seems to me that the outright ban on AWs should be a slam dunk.

GuyW
07-01-2008, 3:46 PM
It seems to me that the outright ban on AWs should be a slam dunk.

I've been worrying that OLLs have complicated our fight...

Hopi
07-01-2008, 3:55 PM
I've been worrying that OLLs have complicated our fight...

How so? If anything, I would think that a rational perspective of OLL vs. AW, grounded by the Heller ruling, would actually help....no?

Can'thavenuthingood
07-01-2008, 4:07 PM
Hot diggety, excellent news. I just sent in my NRA renewel last week too.

CRPA is back in with the good fight? I missed so much being away a bit.

Been hoping for a long time to get on the offensive and attack, attack and attack some more.

Vick

leitung
07-01-2008, 4:35 PM
Good work.. As soon as I get a job, $20 a month will be inbound..

GuyW
07-01-2008, 4:50 PM
How so? If anything, I would think that a rational perspective of OLL vs. AW, grounded by the Heller ruling, would actually help....no?

The state hasn't outlawed a complete class of guns - citizens can own neutered OLL semiauto rifles...

tacticalgrunt
07-01-2008, 6:11 PM
NRA does advertise where it gets bang for the buck.
Can you tell me where the NRA currently advertises in California? I have yet to see a single NRA sponsored infomercial on commonsense approaches to crime prevention.

The NRA has spent more this year on Pierre's' salary then it has in the past several years fighting legislation in the State of California. Look it up, it's a matter of public record.

If you want your $ to fight California gun legislation, donate it to California based organizations. Just my two cents.

I consider the $ I give to the NRA for my membership to be money spent toward the next Presidential campaign.

hoffmang
07-01-2008, 7:31 PM
Can you tell me where the NRA currently advertises in California? I have yet to see a single NRA sponsored infomercial on commonsense approaches to crime prevention.


Advertising guns as politics in California in 2008 is like advertising afro-sheen to the white residents of Birmingham Alabama in 1958.

You can try to claim all sorts of nasty things about NRA but I'm here to tell you that they are a key to keeping bad things from happening and rolling back bad things in this state.

Ask yourself this. Would you prefer the NRA have an Executive Director who didn't deserve a large salary?

-Gene

tacticalgrunt
07-01-2008, 7:49 PM
"Advertising guns as politics in California in 2008 is like advertising afro-sheen to the white residents of Birmingham Alabama in 1958. How about advertising commonsense resolutions to crime prevention instead of taking away law abiding citizens rights, or is this State a lost cause?

You can try to claim all sorts of nasty things about NRA but I'm here to tell you that they are a key to keeping bad things from happening and rolling back bad things in this state. Yes they do some great things nationally, but this State is neglected and is treated as a lost cause. Check the figures.

Ask yourself this. Would you prefer the NRA have an Executive Director who didn't deserve a large salary? "What specifically has LaPierre done to make 4x what his predecessor made?

I am not advocating the downfall of the NRA, but the Organization seems to be strong on new fundraising tactics(wine club), and short on results. I'll pay my dues for the national front, but all other donations go toward organizations that have not written off California just yet.

hoffmang
07-01-2008, 8:12 PM
"Advertising guns as politics in California in 2008 is like advertising afro-sheen to the white residents of Birmingham Alabama in 1958. How about advertising commonsense resolutions to crime prevention instead of taking away law abiding citizens rights, or is this State a lost cause?

You can try to claim all sorts of nasty things about NRA but I'm here to tell you that they are a key to keeping bad things from happening and rolling back bad things in this state. Yes they do some great things nationally, but this State is neglected and is treated as a lost cause. Check the figures.

Ask yourself this. Would you prefer the NRA have an Executive Director who didn't deserve a large salary? "What specifically has LaPierre done to make 4x what his predecessor made?

I am not advocating the downfall of the NRA, but the Organization seems to be strong on new fundraising tactics(wine club), and short on results. I'll pay my dues for the national front, but all other donations go toward organizations that have not written off California just yet.

2nd post and both are anti NRA. Curious.

NRA has been instrumental in California on all things OLL, overturning Prop H, and helping pass AB-2728. If that's your definition of neglect then I guess you want them to come pick you up and drive you to work.

I find it amusing that you ask what LaPierre has done to deserve more pay and then immediately jump to the fact that he's increased NRA's revenues...

Now, again. Why do you want to piss away money advertising something to an unreceptive audience exactly?

-Gene

Kestryll
07-01-2008, 11:42 PM
Tacticalgrunt, keep your anti-NRA vendetta over on your own forum, coming here to pick a fight is not exactly tactful nor welcome.

Yes, I know about CA Pred Club and such, we don't need cross forum postings.
You have your own soap box, use it.

ETA: In accordance with my comments in this post I have registered on the CPC forum in order to keep an eye on some of our more vociferous members. I don't like cross forum issues here and discourage them elsewhere by our members.
All that does is make us even more fragmented when we need to be united.

bigdave1121
07-01-2008, 11:51 PM
Tacticalgrunt, keep your anti-NRA vendetta over on your own forum, coming here to pick a fight is not exactly tactful nor welcome.

Yes, I know about CA Pred Club and such, we don't need cross forum postings.
You have your own soap box, use it.

Who is this guy on CPC? I couldn't find someone named "tacticalgrunt"

Kestryll
07-01-2008, 11:52 PM
Some people aren't tactical all the time.

bwiese
07-01-2008, 11:52 PM
TactcialGrunt, are you Robert Ricker? or Feldman?

Seems the yahoos come out when NRA has earned favorable news.

BTW, what has Wayne LaPierre & NRA done?
- drove passage Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act;
- drove killing of Fed AW ban;
- provided legal/political backfill & funding ato ensure Heller was a sure thing;
(getting tons of DAs and "sense of the legislature" statements was
a real coup, something beyond the resources of the orig small legal team).
- actually has intelligent liason staff in CA.

NRA is on enemy territory in CA and we've held off some bad stuff and exploited legal openings (OLLs, single-action & single-shot exemptions, etc.)

AB2728 stopped the further listing of AWs and offered prospective reduction to a nuisance penalty.

Many of the issues in CA are actually due to *other* gun orgs being stupid.
- SB15 'safe handgun law' was driven by CRPA, with help of SASS 'leadership';
- AB1471 microstamping & AB821 lead ammo restrictions were driven by political naivete
of GOC's Sam Paredes doing the wrong thing at the absolute wrong time;
- CRPA lobbyist/leadership (Kathy Lynch & boyfriend Gerry Upholt) supported various mailorder ammo bans
(Torrico AB2731).

NRA's CA leadership and its CA lawyers (sometimes in conjunction with national staff) will be eviscerating a host of CA gun laws in the next 2-3 years.

bigdave1121
07-01-2008, 11:56 PM
Some people aren't tactical all the time.

Gotcha! ;)

Kestryll
07-02-2008, 12:05 AM
For the record, as far as the forum is concerned we'll work with anyone who is willing to work with us and can show that they are right there with us when it gets ugly.

So far, out of all the major and minor groups the ONLY one to be there in the meetings and hearings, to talk to us directly and let us know what's going on and to have on site, in person meetings with our members to see what we want and ask what OUR concerns are has been the NRA.

No other group, let me repeat that, NO OTHER GROUP, has contacted the members here and ever asked 'What is important to you?'. Oddly enough they instead have sent out form emails asking for funds and no one seems to take them to task for it... That sounds like either ignorance or willful blindness.

I have stated before and I will do so now, if the any of the pro gun groups want to actually work with the members here to affect change and are willing to show by their actions they are welcome here. We're not about any one group, we're about making things change for the better and that means working together instead of trying to see who can usurp who and who feels important.
It is better to speak firmly in unison then to shout in a of cacophony 'full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.'

jdberger
07-02-2008, 12:17 AM
Wow...all this UNITY stuff is making me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Next stop - drumming circles, man hugs and kumbaya. ;)

In all seriousness, thank you, Mr. Michel, Mr. Davis, Mr. Wiese, Mr. Cannon, Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Kilmer, Mr. Kestryll, Mr. Thomason....and all the rest of you folks that get up every morning and think of ways to take the fight to the other guys for a change.

In the past 5 years, I've seen some truly amazing things in California. I have even greater hope for the future.

Extra-special thanks to Mr. Gura and Mr. Levy for having the stones...

tacticalgrunt
07-02-2008, 6:11 PM
I was under the impression that this forum thread was meant for meaningful discussion on our second amendment rights. I was wrong. Apparently if one speaks a different opinion from the masses he is attacked and called a traitor. I see you colors.

I have and always will support the NRA. But have a different opionion on how things are being dealt with in California specificly, so I must be an anti....right? I will not continue to waste my time here. Thanks for the reception.....brother.

p.s. I own many weapons and some are shown on CPC. Believe it or not we are on the same team.

bwiese
07-02-2008, 6:51 PM
Grunt,

We can't have meaningful discussion when you yourself throw random nonfacts out or idiocies like "advertising about crime prevention".

Do you even know what a media campaign costs? And what the cost/benefit ratio is? I thought not. NRA does not have a product (widgets, cars, clothes, bottled water to sell) to fund consumer-level advertising.

Wayne makes what he makes because he's led things in the right direction and to get another person of equal skill & background & polish and ability to deal with politicians would cost about the same. People with skill sets like that have a lotta varied opportunities. Joe Blow, no matter how pro-gun he is, ain't gonna be able to cut it at that level.

Your opinions on what goes on in CA aren't too relevant. Anyone can kibitz.

California has a unique political environment and sometimes battles are best fought in courts and without a lotta advertising, and working behind the scenes. Tell me how your wonderful ad campaign is gonna play in population centers like SF and LA.

BTW much of California's recent gun issues are due to lack of a functional Republican party, which allows the Democrats to move even further left.

I do believe your rampant posts here and on other forums all of a sudden after recent favorable news about NRA indeed form what is known as "trolling".

Anthonysmanifesto
07-02-2008, 7:52 PM
WANTED:

CEO of Globally Recognized Civil Rights/shooting sports/ conservation Company.

Company is secure and has been operating continuously for 138 years.

CEO candidate will be in charge of several organizations with various tax statuses under the umbrella of the parent company incorporated in New York state in 1871.

the CEO will answer to shareholders as governed by an elected board of directors consisting of 76 freely elected directors from dozens of states.

the membership, while modest has been known to peek at over 4 MILLION souls.

Annual combined budgets often total over $220 MILLION dollars and the books are to be made open and public for the membership, which will question these numbers in an open meeting once a year.

IMPORTANT DUTIES:

oversee the 4 million member association and forward their stated objective in front of a global audience and in such places as;the White House, the US congress ( 535 voting members) the United Nations, over 7000 state legislators, 50 governors and attorneys general, regulatory advocacy within several federal and hundreds of state agencies, boards and commissions. You will also be expected to hold accountable tens of thousands of local elected officials.

Maintain millions of acres of privately held land as well as care take or lease a million acres of federal land to the highest and most responsible standards in the nation.

Provide charitable contributions to tens of thousands of ranges, clubs & youth organizations and shooting sports events for free. Host and referee one of the most prestigious shooting matches in the world on a civil war era Army base owned by the company.

Provide outreach and education to the 4 million dues paying members of the company and tens of millions of like minded citizens in the United States.

Over see a staff of 500 persons dedicated to the goals of the membership.

give education and direction to tens of thousands of volunteers.

be advised:
a) All news articles related to the gun issue will cite the NRA for better worse or whether or not the NRA was involved or not.

b) fortune magazine will rate your organization as the most influential lobby in America repeatedly and some will say thats a negative.

c) non members and other so called gun groups will decry your fund raising while simultaneously demand you spend more funds on their cause celeb.

d) you will be held responsible for the outcomes of close elections. ( like defeating al gore).

QUALIFICATIONS:

undying and unwavering loyalty to the cause of freedom, the shooting sports, conservationism, competition and the INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

Be willing to accept a salary far below someone with the requisite experience could make as a lobbyist or as CEO of any similar type of organization or company.

have a very thick skin.

dwtt
07-02-2008, 9:07 PM
I have and always will support the NRA. But have a different opionion on how things are being dealt with in California specificly, so I must be an anti....right? I will not continue to waste my time here. Thanks for the reception.....brother.


Is he really gone? Whew!

I have a feeling I will like the things that will happen in the next two years here in California. I also have a feeling Ed Worley and Chuck Michel are going to be the epicenter of it.

Nahuatl
07-03-2008, 11:30 AM
I need a little help here. Grunt's coming from a site where a guy I know and am rapidly learning to dislike even more is putting on a one-man dog and pony show picking a fight with the NRA. Dumbest divisive idea I've seen in a long time. I actually called NRA to apologize for this butthead today.

http://www.californiapredatorsclub.com/index.php?showtopic=8451

It would be greatly appreciated if a couple of CG/NRA pro staff would register and put this guy in his place. I'm already banned under one handle at CPC for trying to start a hunting club. I can register under a a nom de guerre and get banned again, but it would much more satisfying if I weren't an army of one this time and had some back up. Please put him in his proper place. You will be banned too, but blessed in handgun heaven. So when was the last time you were thrown off a pro-gun website for being pro-NRA? Only at CPC.

bwiese
07-03-2008, 12:10 PM
You will be banned too. So when was
the last time you were thrown off a pro-gun website for being
pro-NRA? Only at CPC.

Yes. It appears the CPC website leadership and/or or its frequent posters may be tied in with AHSA (American Hunters & Shooters Assoc'n) the sham organization designed to appeal to the "2nd Am. is about a right to hunt" crowd.

AngelDecoys
07-03-2008, 1:11 PM
Bill. What tacticalgrunt doesn't understand (or understands all too well if he's not really pro-gun) is that advertising on TV only results in a minimal return, and costs a great deal of money. Or perhaps grunt really wants the progun cause so stretched thin that fighting legislation can't be done. I'm sure Irwin Nowick, as well as other Sacramento politico would be giddy at that prospect. LA and SF politicians dictate legislation in CA.

If the funding were unlimited, sure the NRA could run ads like the following.
Xtt5C4ii8rk

And then we could all have a group hug. As much as I would like to see such an ad in CA, it's really a waste of resources. Higher priority is to funnel the money where it will actually do some good (attorney fees, blocking legislation, and now playing offense). I'd say the NRA is putting the available funds to good use. Whatcha say to that grunt?

Which brings up another point. Wayne is the guy who makes those decisions. Top level executives get paid top dollar because they make, or break a company. If one increases a companies worth by billions, compensating them for those decisions is more than justified.

Anthonysmanifesto: Great write up.

Kestryll
07-03-2008, 1:20 PM
I need a little help here. Grunt's coming from a site where a guy I know and am rapidly learning to dislike even more is putting on a one-man dog and pony show picking a fight with the NRA. Dumbest divisive idea I've seen in a long time. I actually called NRA to apologize for this butthead today.

http://www.californiapredatorsclub.com/index.php?showtopic=8451

It would be greatly appreciated if a couple of CG/NRA pro staff would register and put this guy in his place. I'm already banned under one handle at CPC for trying to start a hunting club. I can register under a a nom de guerre and get banned again, but it would much more satisfying if I weren't an army of one this time and had some back up. Please put him in his proper place. You will be banned too, but blessed in handgun heaven. So when was the last time you were thrown off a pro-gun website for being pro-NRA? Only at CPC.


Okay, first off the clever little nicknames are a no-go here.

Second, registering here at this forum, just to pick a fight or cause trouble WILL get you banned, why would you suppose it would be any different elsewhere?
BTW, multiple registrations here after being banned are not tolerated so I wouldn't be surprised to find out they didn't like it either.

Lastly we DO NOT advocate causing problems on other forums, we don't like it or tolerate it when others do it to us and we won't do it to them. It is not anyone's job to put anyone in their 'proper place', not to mention the question of who chooses what is someone's 'proper place'...

I very much disagree with their opinion and stance on the NRA and what it has done here in Cali, we've seen first hand the efforts and commitment by the NRA here in Cali.
However it is their forum, their rules and their place to voice an opinion.

Nahuatl
07-03-2008, 2:31 PM
Sorry about the nom de guerre, a remainder from other forum protocol. I'm on the phone with Paul Payne who will verify my bone fides.

Gary C
Nahuatl.coyotl@gmail.com

Any of you who need the full info - contact me by PM - I'm happy to talk to anyone. I edited out my full contact info before the H$US spams me to dirt.

Now back to being Nahuatl, the Aztec coyote god, with only one log in name in agreement with the terms of service, with a thousand or two internet posts, and sometimes known as Gary in CA.

Kestryll
07-03-2008, 3:03 PM
Sorry about the nom de guerre, a remainder from other forum protocol. I'm on the phone with Paul Payne who will verify my bone fides.



Now back to being Nahuatl, the Aztec coyote god, with only one log in name in agreement with the terms of service, with a thousand or two internet posts, and sometimes known as Gary in CA.


I wasn't referring to your screen name, I meant the negative play on words with tacticalgrunt's screen name that has been deleted from your post.

Screen names are the norm here, I really don't go be Kestryll all the time. (Just when I'm wearing the cape and cowl...)

My main concern is that we do not engage in cross forum bickering, 'forum wars' waste time, energy and cause all kinds of rifts that take a long time to repair. We need to be focusing on how we can work toygether to make a larger and stronger front not trying to tear each other down.

H Paul Payne
07-03-2008, 4:19 PM
Sorry about the nom de guerre, a remainder from other forum protocol. I'm on the phone with Paul Payne who will verify my bone fides.



Now back to being Nahuatl, the Aztec coyote god, with only one log in name in agreement with the terms of service, with a thousand or two internet posts, and sometimes known as Gary in CA.

FYI, I just got off of the phone with Gary (aka Nahuatl) and he seems to be a good guy. He is very passionate about hunting and firearms ownership and has stated that he wanted to make sure that most NRA members didn't think that all predator hunters were being represented by a small faction of complainers. Note: These are MY words and understanding (based upon our conversation), not a direct quote from Gary.

It was nice to answer questions and discuss issues, without rolling around in the mud. ;)

I continue to look forward to working with hunters, shooters, gun owners, and anyone else who supports the INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment.

Semper Fi and Happy Independence Day!

Paul

mcubed4130
07-03-2008, 10:11 PM
So uhhmmm are we all done? Trolls will be around till the end of time...

Let's concentrate here... We are about to have the most amazing Independence Day - of our lives.

Let's enjoy the moment.

And a HUGE thank you - to all of you who made this 4th of July; the best one ever!

-M3

sobiloff
07-03-2008, 10:43 PM
Just a quick note to say I'm super excited about being on the offense in California for the first time in a long time (IMHO). Thanks to everyone working hard to gain further recognition of our rights in California, and a wonderful Independence Day to all!

hoffmang
07-04-2008, 12:25 AM
All,

Now that we're back on topic - I think everyone here is going to be awestruck with what sorts of changes we're going to be able to complete in the short, medium and long term.

Stephen Halbrook put it best at an event on Wednesday night. Things are moving so quickly that it feels like its been three weeks since last Thursday's Heller decision.

We're going to keep everyone as up to date as we can but know that right now things are moving so fast its hard to keep anyone current on all the moving parts.

-Gene

Misanthrope2
07-05-2008, 6:20 AM
I appreciate the information about the coalition plans but i think it is important to point out that these issues will be raised by others if the Coalition does not act.

Private defense lawyers, public defenders and appellate lawyers appointed by the Courts of Appeal to defend convicted felons will raise the same issues when defending people accused or convicted of violating gun laws. If they don't, they are incompetent.

As a defense and former appointed appellate lawyer, I would raise Heller in every case involving a gun law. I think other defense lawyers will do the same. If you were charged (or convicted) under one of the restrictive California laws, wouldn't you want your lawyer to argue Heller?

If the Coalition doesn't move quickly, these issues will be before the courts soon anyway.

And thanks to the Coalition lawyers who donate time and effort. And to the non-lawyers, too.

Manic Moran
07-05-2008, 6:39 AM
Jesus, my wife's usual online handle on other fora is Miss Ann Thrope, she's a laywer.

Honey, is that you?

Your point is most well made, mind. It is a valid concern.

NTM

AngelDecoys
07-05-2008, 8:08 AM
All the more reason for the NRA, and other like minded groups to push forward 'smart cases' quickly setting precedent. Let the others get pushed aside by our wake. :43:

bwiese
07-05-2008, 8:52 AM
I appreciate the information about the coalition plans but i think it is important to point out that these issues will be raised by others if the Coalition does not act.

Private defense lawyers, public defenders and appellate lawyers appointed by the Courts of Appeal to defend convicted felons will raise the same issues when defending people accused or convicted of violating gun laws. If they don't, they are incompetent.

Yes, and what is NOT wanted is more Gary Gorskys (of near-disaster Silviera fame). So part of the job will also be keeping radar for cases in which these issues might get raised (perhaps inappropriately or as a "shot in the dark") and talk/support such attorneys where necessary so they don't go "off the rails".

Satex
07-05-2008, 12:12 PM
Things are moving so quickly that it feels like its been three weeks since last Thursday's Heller decision.


Sounds like the tide has changed and momentum is gathering. How is the foundation doing from a monetary aspect?

Misanthrope2
07-05-2008, 1:30 PM
Jesus, my wife's usual online handle on other fora is Miss Ann Thrope, she's a laywer.

Honey, is that you?

Your point is most well made, mind. It is a valid concern.

NTM

I'm male but Ms. Ann Thrope was also the pen name of Christopher Manes in the old Earth First! Journal. BTW, I have defended and been called a radical environmentalist. I shoot over a thousand rounds a month, too. Shooters come in all political colors. I have read that 30 percent of Democratic homes own one or more guns compared to 40 percent of Republican homes. Sometimes, some shooters are too quick to attack liberals and environmentalists.

Misanthrope2
07-05-2008, 1:37 PM
Yes, and what is NOT wanted is more Gary Gorskys (of near-disaster Silviera fame). So part of the job will also be keeping radar for cases in which these issues might get raised (perhaps inappropriately or as a "shot in the dark") and talk/support such attorneys where necessary so they don't go "off the rails".

In all cases, the Coalition lawyers can intervene, submit amicus briefs and argue, too. If resources are thin, they can set up a brief bank providing authority for other lawyers to use in these cases.

It is the nature of appellate law to take every shot, no matter if you have only a small chance of prevailing. I think it a safe bet that Heller will appear in every appellate brief involving a restrictive gun law.

But I like the idea of the Coalition filing first, setting precedents and creating a wake for all shooting advocates to ride.

Good luck to any and all who defend the Second Amendment.

cybersurveyor
07-07-2008, 4:03 PM
I'm male but Ms. Ann Thrope was also the pen name of Christopher Manes in the old Earth First! Journal. BTW, I have defended and been called a radical environmentalist. I shoot over a thousand rounds a month, too. Shooters come in all political colors. I have read that 30 percent of Democratic homes own one or more guns compared to 40 percent of Republican homes. Sometimes, some shooters are too quick to attack liberals and environmentalists.

That's a very interesting statistic and I must admit that I am one of those quick to attack liberals and environmentalist. How is it, then that if 70%, according to the statistics, own one or more guns in the home, are we even fighting this battle? Why does the NRA coalition even NEED a plan in California where over 60% of our elected leadership is Democrat. I am interested and open to honest debate, but I believe the difference between Republican gun owners and Democrat gun owners is that Republicans believe in equal gun rights for all and Democrats (in general) believe in gun right for those who know best... or think they know best.... perhaps this would be better as another thread. I'm serious about hearing your opinion. I don't get a chance to talk to many liberals or environmentalist who are interested in firearms....

javalos
07-09-2008, 12:17 PM
A renewed challenge to all or part of the semi-auto ban is also in the works. CRPA has already has significant funding set aside for this effort. TMLLP is coordinating with Calguns on a semi-auto licensing suit, which may include other elements.

Thumbs up Chuck! The semi-auto rifle ban is something that I really have my cross-hairs on since I am a victim of it having had two of my rifles stolen from me from the local anti-gun sheriffs dept. Anyway I can help in particularly zeroing in on taking that ban out you can count me in.

artherd
07-12-2008, 1:52 PM
Sounds like the tide has changed and momentum is gathering. How is the foundation doing from a monetary aspect?

We're doing great, and set a record over $10,000 generated in ONE NIGHT, but we need much more to really get things going.

As treasurer one of my projects is to generate a true war chest of funds, to the level where we can literally go head to head with at least state level governmental agencies, with a bigger supply chain than they are able to muster.

Make no mistake, The Calguns Foundation is but one of many hammers pounding on the remainints of the wall of unjust gun laws. However, we're this cool new hammer, with More Power(TM).

Your donations to CGF go more directly to front line litigation than with any other organization I am aware of.

I do encourage you to donate to both NRA and CGF. NRA though a nationwide organization does spend more in California than all other states *combined*.