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View Full Version : Yet another 2nd PoR questions. FFLs chime in.


JeffM
06-28-2008, 12:48 PM
I'm glad someone brought this up in another thread. I didn't want to jack the thread and I have a specific question I haven't found an answer to in my searching.

I just committed to purchase a handgun and I nearly forgot about the second POR until I saw it in another thread.

For me there may be a monkey in the wrench:

Strike 1: The vehicle I use it not in my name.

Strike 2: I rent a room in a house, all the utilities are in the landlords name.

So that leaves my rental agreement. It was a one year lease, signed, dated, and notarized. The one year is up. It is not written in the contract, but it was understood between us that it would continue as a month-to-month arrangement after the first year.

My landlord is out of the state for the summer, so I'm not sure it's practical for me to get another rental agreement to mail back and forth (and honestly I don't want to be in another contract, and I don't think my landlord does either). And like I said I already made the commitment and would like to do the transfer ASAP.

Will the signed, dated (but expired), and notarized rental agreement still work as a second Proof of Residency? Would you (as a FFL) accept it?

ETA: Per: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33GIt doesn't appear that the Lease or Rental agreement needs to be current. It looks like only a utility bill needs to be current to a certain standard. I'd still like confirmation from an FFL or two that this is kosher.

The SoCal Gunner
06-28-2008, 1:23 PM
I would think it would work if you explained it to the FFL but you should definitely ask the FFL that you plan on using beforehand.

Casual Observer
06-28-2008, 1:48 PM
I'm pretty sure we would only accept a current lease agreement. But that's just us.

You could always do 65 in a 35 or blow through a stop sign. The ticket you get is a valid proof of residency. :cool:

ke6guj
06-28-2008, 1:53 PM
Jeff, you linked to the PoR FAQ, you may want to read the actuall PoP regulations for more detail, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf .

You could get your C&R FFL, that does work as PoR.



Casual, how does a ticket prove residency?

The SoCal Gunner
06-28-2008, 1:54 PM
You could always do 65 in a 35 or blow through a stop sign. The ticket you get is a valid proof of residency. :cool:

Are you sure? I thought it had to be a government issued identification and not just a statement issued from a government entity.

JeffM
06-28-2008, 2:03 PM
My question is more for expediency than anything else. I've committed to buy a handgun, and don't want to make the seller wait.

I'm mailing out the application for a C&R this afternoon and getting fingerprinted for COE ASAP.

Question remains though. The 12 month lease ended just over a month ago.

ke6guj
06-28-2008, 2:08 PM
I dunno about the lease question, so I can't answer it.

As for the COE, you know it has limited benefits in CA? Cash-and-Carry on C&R guns from dealers (must still pay DROS) and no 1-in-30-days limits on handguns. I think thats it.

The SoCal Gunner
06-28-2008, 2:10 PM
My question is more for expediency than anything else. I've committed to buy a handgun, and don't want to make the seller wait.

I'm mailing out the application for a C&R this afternoon and getting fingerprinted for COE ASAP.

Question remains though. The 12 month lease ended just over a month ago.

Is your lease marked off that you can continue on a month to month basis after the lease is over? I can see how some FFLs will be cautious because the month to month term won't show any dates. If the landlord was around, I would probably like to get another signed document to specify when the month to month term started and w/o a termination date.

JeffM
06-28-2008, 2:12 PM
I dunno about the lease question, so I can't answer it.

As for the COE, you know it has limited benefits in CA? Cash-and-Carry on C&R guns from dealers (must still pay DROS) and no 1-in-30-days limits on handguns. I think thats it.

It also counts as a second proof of residency and takes around 2 weeks to arrive (from what I hear), vs. 3 months for a C&R.

I like the idea of being 1in30 exempt as well. Worth the fees and limited paperwork IMHO.

ke6guj
06-28-2008, 2:15 PM
It also counts as a second proof of residency and takes around 2 weeks to arrive (from what I hear),.True dat.

OCArmory
06-28-2008, 2:52 PM
Go get a hunting or fishing license . You fill out a form stating you are a resident. This is how my brother got around big 5 requirement.

ke6guj
06-28-2008, 3:08 PM
Go get a hunting or fishing license . You fill out a form stating you are a resident. This is how my brother got around big 5 requirement.I"ve heard that those aren't technically government-issued licenses since they aren't issued directly by .gov. But, are actually issued to you by a retailer on behalf of the .gov.

Think about it, I walk into Turners without PoR and try to buy a handgun. Without PoR, Turners can't sell it to me. But, they can sell me a fishing license and now I have PoR?


In fact, it is specifically listed in the CADOJ FAQ as not being PoR.

Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:

Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.

JeffM
06-28-2008, 3:13 PM
CA DOJ specifically states that a hunting license is not a valid POR.

Casual Observer
06-28-2008, 5:55 PM
Are you sure? I thought it had to be a government issued identification and not just a statement issued from a government entity.

Doesn't have to be a form of ID per say. IIRC, a ticket is a government issued contract between you and the Court (similar to a lease agreement being a binding contract). You've been cited for X violation and promise to appear in court to either pay the fine or contest the citation. The actual citation itself has your name, address and expiration date/ period of validity (your court date) thereby meeting the requirements for a POR.

The SoCal Gunner
06-28-2008, 7:04 PM
Doesn't have to be a form of ID per say. IIRC, a ticket is a government issued contract between you and the Court (similar to a lease agreement being a binding contract). You've been cited for X violation and promise to appear in court to either pay the fine or contest the citation. The actual citation itself has your name, address and expiration date/ period of validity (your court date) thereby meeting the requirements for a POR.

I'm still not convinced, unless I'm missing something, though I really don't care as long as the buyer passes the background check.

PC 12071 says:

Commencing January 1, 2003, no handgun may be delivered unless
the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm
presents documentation indicating that he or she is a California
resident. Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill
from within the last three months, a residential lease, a property
deed, or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment
within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by
the Department of Justice. The firearms dealer shall retain a
photocopy of the documentation as proof of compliance with this
requirement.

and what DOJ permits as other evidence of residency is:

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).

So by accepting a traffic ticket either the DOJ permits a traffic citation as a valid form of POR or it is considered by them to be a form of government-issued identification.

barrykay
06-28-2008, 10:03 PM
Doesn't have to be a form of ID per say. IIRC, a ticket is a government issued contract between you and the Court (similar to a lease agreement being a binding contract). You've been cited for X violation and promise to appear in court to either pay the fine or contest the citation. The actual citation itself has your name, address and expiration date/ period of validity (your court date) thereby meeting the requirements for a POR.

A traffic ticket in it self is not valid as a P.O.R.

First, the issuing LEO is not the Government. He or she is working for a government agency. Second, where does said leo get the address from? your own CDL and we know that it is not a valid POR. So, the citation proves nothing. What will work however is the notice you receive from the court regarding that citation. You might also want to save the envelope that the notice came in as back up.:chris: