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ZOMBIEHUNTER
06-13-2008, 8:58 PM
my opinion is nothing is better for home/zombie defense then a shotgun i have a benelli super 90 m1 that is awesome i finally put enough rounds through it to break it in and now it is flawless performance what other shotguns are you guys playing with ?

Spyduh
06-13-2008, 9:06 PM
My favorite is still my Mossy 500 20ga I've been using since I was a little kid. Killed so many things with it I lost count

When it's at home I put a 18.5" on it and use it for HD.

The actions slides so smooth it practically feels like my semi shottys. That's how much it's been used =)

FEDUPWBS
06-13-2008, 9:11 PM
SAIGA-12

sloguy
06-13-2008, 9:22 PM
as long as you guys arent using birdshot, then the shotgun is a fine choice.

mcubed4130
06-13-2008, 10:09 PM
as long as you guys arent using birdshot, then the shotgun is a fine choice.

Now now... let's not get into that - AGAIN... :)

Topic was Shotguns - not the ammo. :D

My favorite shotgun for HD; is the one I grab 1st - after my dog has already made dog chew toy of the perp - and the perp wasn't smart enough to leave; with the 120+ lb dog chewing on various body parts.

Oh ok... I'm copping out aren't I... I really like my Mossberg 500 12g.

The M1 is also interesting; as long as you use full power loads - which I do. :)

The Saiga-12 would be in my arsenal already except I'm not fond of mag locks on a HD weapon.

-M3

smle-man
06-13-2008, 10:18 PM
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/shotguns.jpg

Reminton 1187 with rifle sights; Remington 870 3" chamber and Wilson scattergun technologies magazine extention (2 round)

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/Winchester97001.jpg

Winchester 97 12 ga takedown with removable choke tube retrofitted.

Spyduh
06-14-2008, 12:46 AM
Now now... let's not get into that - AGAIN... :)

Topic was Shotguns - not the ammo. :D

Yup, the topic is shotguns. But with out getting to much into ammo. Theres nothing wrong with birdshot for HD. It's less likely to penetrate more than 2-3 layers of sheet rock. I'm not out to hurt any family/neighbors that might be behind the wall.

Don't believe me that birdshots just as devasting to a target? Watch what it does at 10 yards to a sheet rock wall. That's roughly 9-10 feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc

Watch what this guy did to his own house w/ birdshot. He's damn lucky no one was behind that wall or he would be in jail and regretting killing a family member every day of his life behind bars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgqbdVFxlkk

Imagine if the invader is 10 yards in front of you. That would be one massive hole in their stomach. You have to remember that it takes a good distance for the BBs to spread out. 10 yards isn't enough distance for it to spread out and will blow a huge hole into the target.

I've shot rabbits, birds, pheasants with a 28" modified choke using #6 shot ranging from 1 feet to 15 feet away. When I walk over the game and it flushes out right in front of me and I fire that close, it's insta mangled meat and makes it inedible. It's not a pretty sight with 1/3 of a rabbit spread across the dirt. I don't even pick it up and put it in my vest cause I don't want blood dripping down my back.

:cool2:

tophatjones
06-14-2008, 1:13 AM
I've thought about using my Saiga for HD. Reloads with the maglock are still quicker than tube fed shotguns. However, the thought of losing the Saiga to police evidence immediately after a defense scenario really makes me want to use something cheap like a Rem 870 instead.

Spyduh
06-14-2008, 1:23 AM
My load preference is this.

0. On standby with nothing in the chamber. In hunter safety they always teach you to always unload your gun before climbing over a fence. Dropping a shotgun has a higher probability of accidental discharge. Always your own safety first! It takes less than a second to pump a round it.
1. 1st shot is a warning rubber round.
2. If they keep coming it's #6 birdshot.
3. Again if they continue, which I highly doubt will follow another #6 birdshot.
4. If it becomes a fire fight my next round is loaded with #3 buckshot.
5. If needed the last round is a SLUG that will end the battle

Then theres the discussion of pump vs semi. If you practice and use your shotgun a lot, pumping the next round after the shot is like second nature. It's almost instantaneous and is as fast as a semi. I've ran into a few people heading back to the car after getting my bag limit saying that they could have sworn that it sounded like I was using a semi because the shot bursts were so tightly together. With anything, practice makes perfect.

randy
06-14-2008, 5:06 AM
Spyduh after reading your shotgun load out. I don't want you for my wing man.

rastro
06-14-2008, 12:32 PM
I've thought about using my Saiga for HD. Reloads with the maglock are still quicker than tube fed shotguns. However, the thought of losing the Saiga to police evidence immediately after a defense scenario really makes me want to use something cheap like a Rem 870 instead.
Ditto on that. While I love my Saiga and a reload with a maglocked ten-rounder is still quicker than shucking seven rounds into a tube, I don't feel like waiting 3-6 months to get it back from the police pending the investigation.

I've picked up an plain-jane 870 express and plan on running a few hundred rounds of #1/00 buck and slugs through it for patterning purposes and making sure it will be reliable enough for bedside HD.

My Saigas are purely for range use/zombie defense. :43:

Spyduh, why 1st round as warning/rubber round? Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was needed. If you don't put them down for good, that gives them time to arm themselves and put yourself in a two-way firing line.

I won't even mention the subsequent civil lawsuit filed by the bad guy after you have taken away their means to support themselves and feed their family. :p

And finally, have you seen what rubber/non-lethal rounds and #6 birdshot do to zombies? It just pisses them off, and you alerted the rest of the zombies in the area to your presence!

Some good reading on ammo choices:
Shotgunworld 12 gauge wound profiles (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958&sid=3286d8e0a637529407d3156ac54cc4c5)
Shotgun terminal ballistics (http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html)

Rob454
06-14-2008, 12:44 PM
- after my dog has already made dog chew toy of the perp - and the perp wasn't smart enough to leave; with the 120+ lb dog chewing on various body parts.


Dont count on your dog in a self defense situation. Dogs are great for warning but they are pretty easy to kill and I dont care how big the dog is. Granted 95% of people will take off when confronted with a 120 LB dog but the 5% that have guns will just shoot it. I would. besides 99% of the time you wont even be home if you get robbed.

[/QUOTE]
Spyduh, why 1st round as warning/rubber round? Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was needed. If you don't put them down for good, that gives them time to arm themselves and put yourself in a two-way firing line.
[/QUOTE]

You ever been shot with a rubber round? My buddy got shot with a bean bag round and basically he instantly dropped to the ground and it was done. And this guy is by no means a wuss but when that bean bag hit him the fight went out of him. I just wish I had it on video.

rastro
06-14-2008, 1:28 PM
Dont count on your dog in a self defense situation. Dogs are great for warning but they are pretty easy to kill and I dont care how big the dog is. Granted 95% of people will take off when confronted with a 120 LB dog but the 5% that have guns will just shoot it. I would. besides 99% of the time you wont even be home if you get robbed.


Spyduh, why 1st round as warning/rubber round? Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was needed. If you don't put them down for good, that gives them time to arm themselves and put yourself in a two-way firing line.
[/quote]

You ever been shot with a rubber round? My buddy got shot with a bean bag round and basically he instantly dropped to the ground and it was done. And this guy is by no means a wuss but when that bean bag hit him the fight went out of him. I just wish I had it on video.[/quote]
No. :D

Your friend is still alive right? A good shot with a less-than-lethal round should put the person down and take the fight out of them. However, eventually they should get up and still be around to fight another day.

What was the distance of engagement with your friend? Hit center-mass/arm/leg? Was it a controlled situation for training purposes?

How long was your friend down after the bean bag round? Five minutes? Ten minutes? Then he got up, did a lot of cursing and promised to never do that again? :p

My point was that using a rubber bullet DESIGNED to temporarily incapacitate in a life-threatening self-defense situation is bad. Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was necessary.

scobun
06-14-2008, 1:53 PM
My load preference is this.

0. On standby with nothing in the chamber. In hunter safety they always teach you to always unload your gun before climbing over a fence. Dropping a shotgun has a higher probability of accidental discharge. Always your own safety first! It takes less than a second to pump a round it.
1. 1st shot is a warning rubber round.
2. If they keep coming it's #6 birdshot.
3. Again if they continue, which I highly doubt will follow another #6 birdshot.
4. If it becomes a fire fight my next round is loaded with #3 buckshot.
5. If needed the last round is a SLUG that will end the battle

Then theres the discussion of pump vs semi. If you practice and use your shotgun a lot, pumping the next round after the shot is like second nature. It's almost instantaneous and is as fast as a semi. I've ran into a few people heading back to the car after getting my bag limit saying that they could have sworn that it sounded like I was using a semi because the shot bursts were so tightly together. With anything, practice makes perfect.

If you know that is how the gunfight is going to go down, then you shouldn't even need a gun. Use your apparent ability to see the future to call the cops 10 minutes before they get there. What if there are multiple threats? What if they are barricaded and firing from behind a wall? What if the first shot is your only chance to stop them before they kill you or someone in your home?

A life or death situation is a rapidly evolving, dynamic, stressful and confusing experience. You can never know what might happen. You want to have to do as little thinking as possible. That means a shotgun you can fire without short stroking or jamming, and defintely not needing to keep track of what round you are on. Your first shot should be just as deadly as your last. Semi-autos and 00 buck are king of this castle.

Your advice is dangerous and I highly suggest you rethink it.

mcubed4130
06-14-2008, 7:57 PM
I've thought about using my Saiga for HD. Reloads with the maglock are still quicker than tube fed shotguns...

Uhhmmm... well... yes and no.

You may want to take a combat shotgun class. With a tube fed weapon; you never - wait - until your empty to reload... you continuously top off the weapon; as you move or after you shoot.

With a magazine fed weapon; you fire until empty... then you are out of the fight until you reload.

I'll take tube fed; vs. mag locked... but that's me...

-M3

tombinghamthegreat
06-14-2008, 8:25 PM
I'll take tube fed; vs. mag locked... but that's me...


If the saiga shotguns were not mag locked it would be my top pick. For now my simple pump action mossberg 590 is my main choice for HD.

warpath
06-14-2008, 8:49 PM
shotgun is the best cqb weapon

tophatjones
06-14-2008, 9:21 PM
All are good points, but you don't necessarily have to empty a magazine fed weapon before a reload. You can perform a tactical reload during a lull in fire. With the bullet button and any one of those clever methods of keeping a tool present (like those ring ones), you can make the mag change in under 3 seconds. Thats 10 rounds in each mag (and for non hi cap ban states, there is a 20 round drum coming out from MD arms that supposed to be very reliable). That being said, tube fed is indeed great for topping off rounds, and having rounds present at all times. The drawback is when you need to expend more than 8 rounds. The tube fed mag (just like the mag fed) has its own set of weaknesses and strengths, so classes teach in a manner that maximizes the strengths of the tube fed system. This is why topping rounds off is a fundamental practice taught at combat shotgun classes.

Most combat shotgun classes are currently taught with tube fed mags in mind, since they are the standard. As a result of this, the Saiga has its own set of strengths and weaknesses that aren't addressed as well in a combat class. Therefore, the Saiga would not perform as well on some of the drills. I'm specifically thinking of the one where all shotgunners line up and the first person takes a shot at a target, the second takes a shot, etc and the first person tops off a round into his magazine when the other shooters are all shooting the target. Then the first shooter puts a round in the first target and the second target, and the second shooter puts a round in the first target and the second target, etc. First shooter reloads, etc. Perhaps one day the Saiga or another mag fed gun will become more accepted and the classes will evolve.

Of course, all is most likely moot, because if you shoot ten rounds of 00 buck or 1oz slugs in a HD situation, and the fight is still going on, you've got some major problems.

Uhhmmm... well... yes and no.

You may want to take a combat shotgun class. With a tube fed weapon; you never - wait - until your empty to reload... you continuously top off the weapon; as you move or after you shoot.

With a magazine fed weapon; you fire until empty... then you are out of the fight until you reload.

I'll take tube fed; vs. mag locked... but that's me...

-M3

tophatjones
06-14-2008, 9:25 PM
I should point out that two major weaknesses in the Saiga system are its lack of bolt hold open, and the difficulty in inserting a loaded magazine on a closed bolt. The latter would make tactical mag changes difficult. However, there are two aftermarket products which should revolutionize the Saiga concept. One is an automatic bolt hold open from Cobra762, and the other is a mag well from MD arms. These would speed up mag changes immensely, and greatly increase its practicality.

randy
06-14-2008, 9:35 PM
One other problem with a Saiga over a tube shotgun. They were out shot with a tube gun at Ft. Benning last year. And they had 10 round mags no mag lock.

And Spyduh I still would not want you for my wing man.

tophatjones
06-14-2008, 9:46 PM
One other problem with a Saiga over a tube shotgun. They were out shot with a tube gun at Ft. Benning last year. And they had 10 round mags no mag lock.

And Spyduh I still would not want you for my wing man.

Details, man! :confused: I bet we'll see more Saigas in comp when people start catching on. The shotgun crowd is definitely a conservative, seen it all crowd. Even if we see Saigas side by side with tube guns in the future, people will still hate em though. After all, they are supposed to be the Glocks of the shotgun world.

mcubed4130
06-14-2008, 10:06 PM
Dont count on your dog in a self defense situation. Dogs are great for warning but they are pretty easy to kill and I dont care how big the dog is. Granted 95% of people will take off when confronted with a 120 LB dog but the 5% that have guns will just shoot it. I would. besides 99% of the time you wont even be home if you get robbed.

Rob thanks for the warning, but you are preaching to the choir. :)

I'm clear on my dog's usefulness... i.e. enough time to wake up from deep sleep - grab shotgun and prepare weapon to fire. If prep is still in the house - as you said - my dog is probably done; and then it's my turn.

As for the 99% - my place is a bad choice; as it's nearly impossible to predict comings and goings - and the number of times in the past 10 years my place - has been completely empty I can count on a couple fingers.

-M3

randy
06-14-2008, 10:16 PM
Depending on how the stage is designed it can favor or kill a Saiga. Taran won the match using a Benelli with an 9 round tube.

Prowler
06-14-2008, 10:25 PM
I'll stick with my Benelli M1 Super 90 and I doubt your pump will be faster...:43:

sloguy
06-15-2008, 9:07 PM
Yup, the topic is shotguns. But with out getting to much into ammo. Theres nothing wrong with birdshot for HD. It's less likely to penetrate more than 2-3 layers of sheet rock. I'm not out to hurt any family/neighbors that might be behind the wall.

Don't believe me that birdshots just as devasting to a target? Watch what it does at 10 yards to a sheet rock wall. That's roughly 9-10 feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc

Watch what this guy did to his own house w/ birdshot. He's damn lucky no one was behind that wall or he would be in jail and regretting killing a family member every day of his life behind bars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgqbdVFxlkk

Imagine if the invader is 10 yards in front of you. That would be one massive hole in their stomach. You have to remember that it takes a good distance for the BBs to spread out. 10 yards isn't enough distance for it to spread out and will blow a huge hole into the target.

I've shot rabbits, birds, pheasants with a 28" modified choke using #6 shot ranging from 1 feet to 15 feet away. When I walk over the game and it flushes out right in front of me and I fire that close, it's insta mangled meat and makes it inedible. It's not a pretty sight with 1/3 of a rabbit spread across the dirt. I don't even pick it up and put it in my vest cause I don't want blood dripping down my back.

:cool2:

your absolutely 100% wrong about birdshot. it never ceases to amaze me how many uninformed people spout its praise.

how can you trust a round that barely penetrates sheetrock? pellet guns go thru sheetrock. you think a pellet gun is a viable home defense weapon?

duenor
06-15-2008, 10:27 PM
If you think that birdshot is the ideal round to defend your house with, you are going to be in for a very rude surprise when you shoot a BG 10 yards away with your gun, right in the chest, and the pellets get stuck in his leather jacket.

My friend, I fired 7 rounds through my Benelli M1s90 only a few weeks ago at a PVC frame with cardboard at angeles. Here is what happened

7 yards - big hole in CARDBOARD. note that people are not made of cardboard
10 yards - spread out damage in cardboard, cracked PVC (I didn't make this shot)
15 yards - scattered all over the cardboard, and BIRDSHOT SPLATTERED ON THE PVC. DIDN'T EVEN PENETRATE.

the pvc looked like someone had taken a pencil and jabbed it a whole bunch of times. not a single puncture or crack at that distance. we moved it out to 25 yards and i might as well have been spitting at the target.

anyway, back to topic.

here's my own list

1. benelli m1s90
2. valtro pm5 / FN semi-auto
3. mossberg 590 a1 with knoxx sidewinder (only if thoroughly tested for reliability)
4. rem 870
5. any quality pump shotgun (moss 500, stevens 520, etc)
6. any quality semi-auto shotgun (rem mod 11, etc)
7. saiga 12 only makes this list at all if the S has HTF and you have popped the maglock, and you have 10 round AGP magazines. I know that personally have NO FAITH whatsoever in my ability to unlock magazines from my gun during a firefight.

tombinghamthegreat
06-15-2008, 10:49 PM
your absolutely 100% wrong about birdshot. it never ceases to amaze me how many uninformed people spout its praise.

how can you trust a round that barely penetrates sheetrock? pellet guns go thru sheetrock. you think a pellet gun is a viable home defense weapon?

This is california and i have heard of people thinking airsoft guns are effective in HD.:eek:

Anyway does anyone know where i could get a baynet for a mossberg 590 for under 50 dollars? You never know how bad a SD situation could get.

Dark Water
06-16-2008, 3:16 AM
I have a Remington 870 and think that is the way to go for home defense. No bird shot here though. It is slug and buckshot for me. Guns are lethal force no matter how you look at it so why dick around?

X-NewYawker
06-16-2008, 8:55 AM
Love my M-1 but switched to Knoxx stocked OD green 870 for "psychological reasons"

Sumo99
06-16-2008, 8:58 AM
I'll stick with my Benelli M1 Super 90 and I doubt your pump will be faster...:43:

Another Benelli M1 here.

Ever see Tom Knapp shoot a pump shotgun? I know he shoots it faster and more accuratly than I can shoot my semi. :eek:

Prowler
06-16-2008, 12:01 PM
Another Benelli M1 here.

Ever see Tom Knapp shoot a pump shotgun? I know he shoots it faster and more accuratly than I can shoot my semi. :eek:

No I haven't. All I know is my skill level and the Benelli is faster that I am. No way could I shoot a pump as fast and as accurate as my M1 Super 90. Especially since it's tuned for 3-Gun.

Sumo99
06-16-2008, 12:23 PM
No I haven't. All I know is my skill level and the Benelli is faster that I am. No way could I shoot a pump as fast and as accurate as my M1 Super 90. Especially since it's tuned for 3-Gun.

I'll see if I can find the video. He tosses 7 or 8 clays into the air and hits them all before they hit the ground. When he uses a semi I think he shoots 8 or 9. It's pretty impressive.