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OCLAWDOG
06-13-2008, 1:40 PM
Hi all, this is my first post here.

I have a LMT M4 on its way to me and was doing a bit of research for a good sight for it. This isn't going to be for work, rather just for fun. I mostly shoot close range so I figured a good 1X red dot would be sufficient. From everything I've read, it's either an Eotech or Aimpoint to consider.

Now here's my question. I already have a C More railway 8 MOA sight. It's very rugged and easy to use when I had it on my Storm 9mm.

Will the C more be good enough for my M-4? Especially if I co-witness it.


The C more seams to fall in the upper end of the red dot sights from what I've read, eventhough it is very reasonably priced compared to the others. What do you all think of it?

Thank you.

brando
06-13-2008, 2:10 PM
If it already works for you, then have at it. C-More and Trijicon Reflex are obsolete, in my opinion, especially with the Aimpoint Micro out.

OCLAWDOG
06-13-2008, 3:27 PM
Thanks Brando. But what makes the Micro better? Also, it's pretty pricy, Would you get an Eotch for $420 and save a hundred bucks vs. the micro or M3?

brando
06-13-2008, 3:49 PM
Well, it's more about having a compact RDS. The CMore and the Reflex, when they were introduced, were generally more compact than most red dot sights (well, the CMore isn't as compact as the Reflex). My main gripe with them is mostly with regards to shooting in bright light and how the dot gets lost easily. My reasoning for mentioning the Micro is that it has the all of the advantages of a modern Aimpoint with the very compact size of say the Trijicon Reflex.

OCLAWDOG
06-13-2008, 4:49 PM
I see. Thanks for the expanation. As one who has not had any experience with other RDS systems, I was sold on the C More because they claimed its "Open Face" heads up display makes picking up the red dot easier with both eyes open. I guess as opposed to looking down the "Longer" tube of a aimpoint for example. But it is hard to see during sunny days....Unless you turn it on max output.

brando
06-13-2008, 5:03 PM
Yeah, the wide Field of View is favored in close-in sights, which is one of the reason I favored the EOTech for so many years. Another factor I didn't touch on is the ruggedness of open face designs. I've seen my fare share of Doctor optic get smashed to hell downrange and the C-More has a similar design (ie needs a hood for more than one reason).

OCLAWDOG
06-13-2008, 5:18 PM
If I may slightly change topics here: Can you think of a RDS which has a telescopics variable of 1X to say...2 or 3X? And I'm not talking of placing a magnifier in from of a 1X RDS. Do they make anything like I menitioned for around $500 or so?

maxicon
06-13-2008, 10:17 PM
Aimpoint makes a fixed 2x version of the CompC:
http://www.aimpoint.com/o.o.i.s?id=47&prev_id=47&product_id=105

For variables, you're looking more at an illuminated scope. When you add magnification, eye relief becomes an issue, which negates one of the benefits of the non-magnified red dot.

Best bet in that price range for a fast reticle and zoom capability would be the 1.25-4x Trijicon Accupoint TR21, which a lot of people like. It's a little bit more expensive than your budget at around $600, and after that comes stuff like the Meopta and IOR, at $700 or so.

There's also the Millett DMS-1 for around $220, which is 1-4x, is a true 1x, and has a nice reticle for fast shooting. It won't be as sturdy as the expensive stuff, but is a great scope for the money.

OCLAWDOG
06-14-2008, 3:05 AM
Okay Max, you sold me on the DMS-1. Would you recommend some nice "Tactical" looking scope mounts for it so I can order some.


BTW, I doubt this scope can be sighted by Co-witnessing it with the iron sights. Is a lazer bore the best way to sight it in?

Thanks very much for the info.

maxicon
06-14-2008, 9:19 AM
The problem with the DMS-1 is that it's got a long eyepiece, due to the illumination, and requires an extended mount if you shoot anywhere near NTCH (nose to charging handle). The main extended mounts are the LaRue SPR-E and the ADM Recon X, both of which cost around the same as the scope. It's hard to go wrong with the LaRue, if you don't mind spending the money.

The other 2 popular options for the DMS-1 are the inexpensive but solid CAA DVSR, which doesn't provide enough eye relief for a lot of people, and an extended rail/ring combo, which is the most flexible, but has more connections to shift or loosen. The YHM extended rail is popular for this, as it's affordable and solid.

There's a huge DMS-1 thread here with lots of mounting variations:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=326527

and a shorter thread here on the mounting options:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=377329

If you're going to mount a BUIS, you need to make sure there's enough room for your BUIS under the mount and scope combo. Otherwise, you want the scope centerline to be around 1.3-1.5".

Here's a pic of a Leupold PR scope mounted on a YHM extended rail with Leupold QRW medium rings (high would be better for this setup), all on a CMMG M4gery upper. There's more than enough adjustment for eye relief, and the DMS-1 would work well here with 30mm rings:

http://maxicon.com/guns/ar/cmmg_yhm_pr_qrw-3-a.jpg


Here's the Big List of AR15 one-piece mounts:

http://www.maxicon.com/guns/optics/one_piece/ar15_onepiece_mounts.htm

and here's a review on the DVSR, with DMS-1 pics:
www.maxicon.com/guns/optics/caa/caa_dvsr.htm (http://www.maxicon.com/guns/optics/caa/caa_dvsr.htm)


Finally, the best way to boresight an AR doesn't require any special gear:

Remove the upper, pull the B/C/CH, and prop it on something sturdy:
http://maxicon.com/guns/ar/ar_boresight_setup_1a.jpg

Look down the barrel and line it up on something easy to spot (I'm using the blue mirror ball)
http://maxicon.com/guns/ar/ar_barrel_boresight_3.jpg

Zero the scope on the same target:
http://maxicon.com/guns/ar/mueller_boresight_1a.jpg

Go back and forth a few times to make sure nothing's shifted. This should get you on the paper, and you can dial it in at the range.

OCLAWDOG
06-14-2008, 12:36 PM
Great explaination on sighting in the scope. Thanks very much for your time Max.

OCLAWDOG
06-20-2008, 2:33 PM
I just ordred a Millet DMS-1 with a CAA mount. $219 for the scope and $22 for the mount. This is going on my LMT M4 which is on its way. Thanks all for your help, especially you max.

BTW, I went through Big River Tactical. Donnie is a LEO and a very nice guy. Good customer service. And shipping was only $10.