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View Full Version : Are Premium 5.56 Rounds Worth the Money?


Rottentofu
03-23-2015, 11:30 AM
I have recently joined the AR club and I'm in the process of slowly growing my 5.56 ammo stock. That's when the question hit me: Is it really worth paying $1+/round for high quality rounds like Black Hills and Hornady for SD and HD and maybe even for when SHTF?

I stock up on pistol ammo, too, and for these ammo I understand the need to pay extra money for premium rounds due to the relative lack of firepower of pistol ammo compare to rifle/shotgun ammo.

But for 5.56mm, which generates around 1000+ ft/lb, does it really make much of a difference shooting a two legged varmint with a PMC 5.56mm or a Hornady 5.56mm? Personally, I find it difficult to justify the extra $1/round for these premium 5.56 rounds.

Thoughts?

penguin0123
03-23-2015, 11:31 AM
Yes. Read up on terminal ballistics. Not every projectile is created equal.

Also, these "premium" rounds may be loaded with super secret blend of powder that is more temp stable.

static2126
03-23-2015, 11:32 AM
Very much so. There is a huge difference in ballistics

Jimmybacon43
03-23-2015, 11:33 AM
So you're talking about using an AR for self defense? I assume that those Hornady rounds and the other high quality AR ammo is intended mostly for hunters, I agree that standard 5.56 55 grain FMJ is good enough to drop someone in self defense.

bovver
03-23-2015, 11:35 AM
Depends.
For my 20" 1:7 barrel I use 62gr or better.
For my 16" 1:7 barrel I use 55gr.
I'm sorry but my knowledge on all the various 5.56 ammo is limited. I have much interest in hearing what others have to say.

Full Clip
03-23-2015, 11:35 AM
Why don't you buy a selection and see what your rifle shoots best? Then buy more of that, regardless of the price.

static2126
03-23-2015, 11:38 AM
So you're talking about using an AR for self defense? I assume that those Hornady rounds and the other high quality AR ammo is intended mostly for hunters, I agree that standard 5.56 55 grain FMJ is good enough to drop someone in self defense.


Military and LE experiences with the 55 FMJ round have shown it lacking.

Mossy Man
03-23-2015, 11:38 AM
I just use M193.

I've got a 20" barrel, and not shooting through barriers, so its pretty likely to fragment at close range

Rottentofu
03-23-2015, 11:39 AM
Why don't you buy a selection and see what your rifle shoots best? Then buy more of that, regardless of the price.

I'm not too worried about finding an ammo my rifle can shoot best. I want to find an ammo that is cost efficient to stock up and be effective at the same time.

I wouldn't mind stocking up a few premium rounds just for the kick, but when it comes to stocking up a few thousand rounds, that extra $1/round can really dig into your wallet.

technique
03-23-2015, 11:40 AM
I've killed a lot of things with FMJ.

The wounds and wound channels are very different between a ballistic projectile and a non-ballistic projectile. The end result was the same though. Death.
If you think you'll be shooting something up close and your goal is incapacitation as quickly as possible, consider a ballistic projectile.

Otherwise, poke more holes than one can plug with 2 hands.

CK_32
03-23-2015, 11:42 AM
SD?


No.


Target practice or competition to get the full capability of your firearm. Yes

teflondog
03-23-2015, 11:43 AM
It's the same as asking if 9mm/.40s&w/.45acp hollow points are worth the price over FMJ. I wouldn't hesitate using XM193 for self defense if that's all I had, but there are better choices out there.

XM193 is not an effective round for hunting deer so it wouldn't be my first pick against humans.

highpower790
03-23-2015, 11:43 AM
All depends on how large a group your willing to except,taking into account your experience and quality of rifle.

NorCalFocus
03-23-2015, 11:43 AM
Paper and steel don't know the difference between one bullet and the next. Soft tissue does though. So using that simple logic, you decide what bullet you need for the job.

I do use premium match bullets in my hand loads for a steel match though. But thats like the others have said, better performance.

Mossy Man
03-23-2015, 11:45 AM
That said I probably wouldn't want to shoot a 3k+ fps rifle indoors anyway

Chewbaca
03-23-2015, 11:46 AM
All your going to be doing is shooting paper so buy the cheapest thing possible. Usually steel cased russian ammo. Keep a few mags full of your premium ammo at home for HD. But cheap ammo will have the same affect . Load up a mag full of the cheapest ammo you can find and see how many of these key board commandoes want to stand in front of you while you shoot. Unless your shooting for very precise groups there is no reason to shoot blackhills

xxINKxx
03-23-2015, 11:51 AM
If you have to ask then I doubt your going to need $1 a round ammo durring a real SHTF scenario. Your off the shelf colt 6920 isn't going to benefit much with super expensive stuff vs cheaper PMC.

Full Clip
03-23-2015, 11:52 AM
When you start looking at the price of high-end ammo, getting into reloading makes a lot of sense.
My "premium" ammo is 69grn Nosler Custom Competition BTHPs over 24grns of TAC.

FourT6and2
03-23-2015, 1:02 PM
SD?


No.


Target practice or competition to get the full capability of your firearm. Yes

This.

For self-defense: As long as it's reliable, it should do the trick. I have XM193. Shooting sub-MOA isn't important. As long as it goes bang it's good to go.

For target/range/competition: Expensive, premium ammo that is consistent so I can group well and hit the bullseye.

Rottentofu
03-23-2015, 1:24 PM
Thanks for all the replies everyone! Very helpful! I think the best thing to do now is to stock up on cheap 5.56mm and maybe buy a box of premiums once in a while. I don't compete and the ammo will mainly be for SD purposes, so at the moment, I don't think I can fully utilize premium 5.56 rounds.

rcslotcar
03-23-2015, 1:34 PM
My premium ammo comes off my Dillon 650.

MrPlink
03-23-2015, 1:58 PM
Choosing ammo is like choosing your rifle. It's all about the right tool for the job.

The answer here is really going to depend on what you are trying to accomplish, what rifle you are using, and to an extent what your capabilities are.

vintagearms
03-23-2015, 2:13 PM
When you start looking at the price of high-end ammo, getting into reloading makes a lot of sense.
My "premium" ammo is 69grn Nosler Custom Competition BTHPs over 24grns of TAC.

I'll have to check those out. My "premium" ammo is 69grn Sierra MK Varget powder and Lapua brass.

Jimi Jah
03-23-2015, 3:40 PM
I use Nosler 75 and 77 grain match with varget or Hornady 69 grain with varget for my 1/9 twist. The 1/9 is 20" and it hits 600 yards well with 69 grain.

tiger222
03-23-2015, 3:46 PM
as with anything there is a law of diminishing returns.

like with cars "Speed costs money son, how fast do you want to go?"

Rbutler
03-23-2015, 3:50 PM
if you have a franken gun built by the lowest parts you can find dont waste the coin on match ammo. If you havea precision built AR then the match ammo will really shine. 1moa is absolute best with bulk 556 and 2-3MOA is more on par with what people see from non cherry picked groups.

the 77gr BH match ammo should be sub MOA with a good shooter and rifle any day and every group. you would have to cherry pick the back groups.

Click Boom
03-23-2015, 4:13 PM
All your going to be doing is shooting paper so buy the cheapest thing possible. Usually steel cased russian ammo. Keep a few mags full of your premium ammo at home for HD. But cheap ammo will have the same affect . Load up a mag full of the cheapest ammo you can find and see how many of these key board commandoes want to stand in front of you while you shoot. Unless your shooting for very precise groups there is no reason to shoot blackhills

This

Full Clip
03-23-2015, 4:39 PM
I'll have to check those out. My "premium" ammo is 69grn Sierra MK Varget powder and Lapua brass.

Ha, yeah, I'm hardly a precision shooter, so I draw the line at Lapua brass!

vintagearms
03-23-2015, 4:47 PM
the 77gr BH match ammo should be sub MOA with a good shooter and rifle any day and every group. you would have to cherry pick the back groups.


I'd like to see that. I call BS.

highpower790
03-23-2015, 5:07 PM
I'd like to see that. I call BS.No need to cherry pick they would be in the center.

ECVMatt
03-23-2015, 5:15 PM
When I was living in TX I worked on a ranch that slowly got overrun with hogs. The owner of the ranch went to a gun show in Ft. Worth and brought back a 1000 rounds of XM193 and turned it over to us. We engaged in a long and extended war with the hogs and I became duly impressed with the terminal performance of this round. The hogs eventually won, but we hammered 100's with this round and it almost always dropped them within 50 yards of being hit. Most of the pigs were in the 90 to 200 pound range. I still keep a good supply of this stuff around....

technique
03-23-2015, 5:29 PM
When I was living in TX I work on a ranch that slowly got overrun with hogs. They owner of the ranch went to a gunshow in Ft. Worth and brought back 1000 rounds of XM193 and turned it over to us. We engaged in a long and extended war with the hogs and I became duly impressed with the terminal performance of this round. The hogs eventually won, we hammered 100's with this round and it almost always dropped them within 50 yards of being hit. Most of the pigs were in the 90 to 200 pound range. I still keep a good supply of this stuff around....

Exactly. I've smashed on hogs with M193, M855, and even M856.
They're an invasive species and with the amount of killing there is to do, who wants to spend the kinda money on performance ammunition?

I've seen big hogs slump over dead from a single well placed body shot of FMJ.

Paseclipse
03-23-2015, 5:35 PM
When you start looking at the price of high-end ammo, getting into reloading makes a lot of sense.
My "premium" ammo is 69grn Nosler Custom Competition BTHPs over 24grns of TAC.

My premium ammo comes off my Dillon 650.

I agree with these two guys. The best "premium" ammo is the ammo you make after you've worked up a load for you're rifle. It's also cheaper and more consistent than off the shelf ammo.

Germz
03-23-2015, 5:36 PM
you have to be realistic. for SD/HD and the possible SHTF scenario, you will never engage a target at distances greater than 100 yards. so lets double that and say 200 yards.

5.56 is not affected by wind at 200 yards unless you're shooting in a hurricane. the crappiest ammo I've ever shot was MAYBE 4 MOA. You can't sit there and say that 8" groups at 200 yards is unsatisfactory; you're not sniping...and if you are...then buy a few rounds for an SPR

but to close it in, for SD/HD you're talking average 21 feet. which means your groupings would be .8" with 4 MOA ammo...so why buy overpriced 5.56 for HD/SD????

highpower790
03-23-2015, 5:43 PM
you have to be realistic. for SD/HD and the possible SHTF scenario, you will never engage a target at distances greater than 100 yards. so lets double that and say 200 yards.

5.56 is not affected by wind at 200 yards unless you're shooting in a hurricane. the crappiest ammo I've ever shot was MAYBE 4 MOA. You can't sit there and say that 8" groups at 200 yards is unsatisfactory; you're not sniping...and if you are...then buy a few rounds for an SPR

but to close it in, for SD/HD you're talking average 21 feet. which means your groupings would be .8" with 4 MOA ammo...so why buy overpriced 5.56 for HD/SD????556 not affected by wind at 200yds...hmmm,well go to Coalinga at a time of day when the wind blows,put up a target and report back.
I shot at Coalinga Sun and had 1min on to stay centered at 200.1/2 min changes are common at 100 if you want to believe it.My .02

audiophil2
03-23-2015, 5:43 PM
OP will probably enjoy the sport more with cases of cheap steel cased ammo and a half dozen extractors. $240/1000 is a lot more fun than $1000/1000.

Niviticus
03-23-2015, 5:46 PM
I would personally stick with something common like m193 and pick up a few barrier blind rounds as well. My personal stock is like that. Mostly m193 with some barrier blind rounds just to have. M193 is a good overall round that has good ballistics and is cheap enough to practice with. Whatever you choose be sure to train with it so your familiar with how it shoots and how your personal rifle likes it. Then again if it's m193 I don't foresee many rifles not liking that round.

ThighSlapper
03-23-2015, 6:24 PM
I like the PPU 75gr BTHP in my 16" really tightened my groups up over m193.
Plus its cheap. like $9 a box

vintagearms
03-23-2015, 6:29 PM
No need to cherry pick they would be in the center.

Sub MOA and every group, any day? Group of what? One, two, five?

Varg Vikernes
03-23-2015, 6:38 PM
Why not just roll your own if you are gonna buy a bunch?

vliberatore
03-23-2015, 6:40 PM
Sub MOA and every group, any day? Group of what? One, two, five?

Probably depends on your rifle too. If you're shooting 3/4 MOA ammo out of a 3 MOA rifle, guess how well it will group?

highpower790
03-23-2015, 6:51 PM
Sub MOA and every group, any day? Group of what? One, two, five?100yds 20 shots.,prone ,iron sights,with a sling.

milotrain
03-23-2015, 6:55 PM
if you have a franken gun built by the lowest parts you can find dont waste the coin on match ammo.
It's all about the barrel. I had a total franken upper that had a DPMS match barrel on it and it shot sub MOA with a reload that was basically a mirror of the BH 77gr.

100yds 20 shots.,prone ,iron sights,with a sling.
You don't even need Lapua brass! :D


vintagearms, It's the Nut first, the barrel second and the load third. The .223 is a massively easy round to reload for, it will put up with a lot of shenanigans and still be accurate. You can't do much better than 23.5gr of TAC and a 77gr SMK without going to a stick powder, and guess what BH 77 is?

milotrain
03-23-2015, 7:05 PM
You'll notice the hole is very small. This has to do with aerodynamics and the fact that air is a fluid and will form into a cone shape near perfectly in the front cavity of those 77gr SMKs which aids in staying supersonic longer as does the BT.

I don't think that's true. HPBT bullets are the way they are because you have to get the lead in there somehow and it's easier to build accurate bullets back to front not front to back. If it were true that the hollow point aided in BC then Amaxes wouldn't have better BC than most HPBTs, and Sierra wouldn't have just come out with the Tipped Match Kings which have better BC than anything in their weight class.


The Black Hills rounds have a cannelure which is designed for military crimping but also has 2 more side effects. 1 is that it causes a higher tendency for the round to break apart upon impact and fragment. 2 is that it has been known to decrease accuracy due to the surface area not being uniformly undisturbed which is why MOST match ammo does not have cannelures. This accuracy difference may be insignificant to the point that it is only perceived but not experienced in rounds such as the OTM with the heavier bullets. Military rounds tend to have them for the crimping reason stated earlier.
The black hills rounds use the SMK bullet. The SMK has a lightly rolled cannelure that is nothing like what a traditional cannelure does. It is there to fulfill the military contract for LR ammo and will be swaged out the moment the round hits the lead. Or at least that's what I hear.

highpower790
03-23-2015, 7:11 PM
I don't think that's true. HPBT bullets are the way they are because you have to get the lead in there somehow and it's easier to build accurate bullets back to front not front to back. If it were true that the hollow point aided in BC then Amaxes wouldn't have better BC than most HPBTs, and Sierra wouldn't have just come out with the Tipped Match Kings which have better BC than anything in their weight class.


The black hills rounds use the SMK bullet. The SMK has a lightly rolled cannelure that is nothing like what a traditional cannelure does. It is there to fulfill the military contract for LR ammo and will be swaged out the moment the round hits the lead. Or at least that's what I hear.fact!

Rottentofu
03-23-2015, 8:44 PM
Is this a good price to stock up on?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals-new/federal-5-56x45mm-nato-55gr-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail-20rds-xm193.html

milotrain
03-23-2015, 8:48 PM
For what you want it to do (sit in the closet forever) it's a great deal.

hatidua
03-23-2015, 8:58 PM
5.56 is not affected by wind at 200 yards

pure comedy

Mossy Man
03-23-2015, 8:59 PM
Is this a good price to stock up on?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals-new/federal-5-56x45mm-nato-55gr-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail-20rds-xm193.html

it's about average i'd say.

I can get that price locally for the same exact item

Rigma
03-23-2015, 9:55 PM
Is this a good price to stock up on?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals-new/federal-5-56x45mm-nato-55gr-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail-20rds-xm193.html

Not bad, but this is about the best I have seen lately.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals-new/federal-5-56-55gr-fmj-bt-90rds-strclp.html

Buy it before they change their mind.

Your link = $0.35 per round, 20 round box (before shipping)

My link = $0.33 per round, 90 round box, on 10-round stripper clips (before shipping)

:leaving:

Germz
03-23-2015, 10:07 PM
pure comedy
Juses christ you cherry picker. Hes talking about sd hd and shtf. Not talking about sub moa grouping.

I cant speak of coalinga but here at wilcox range there are daily crosswinds of up to 25mph and guess what. Point at black, hit on black on a 1' circle..6 moa.

So unless op is going to combat or defending his home against people with SMALLER THAN child sized torsos...AT 200 YARDS....get over yourself. Cheap and reliable ammo is all thats required for his purposes in my opinion and thats what im saying.

The snobness. I can deal without it. thanks.

level5bear
03-23-2015, 10:14 PM
The hollow points in Black Hills rounds for example are NOT for mushrooming upon penetration. You'll notice the hole is very small. This has to do with aerodynamics and the fact that air is a fluid and will form into a cone shape near perfectly in the front cavity of those 77gr SMKs which aids in staying supersonic longer

Do you have a source for this? I would be interested in reading it. I am studying aerospace engineering at SDSU, and I haven't gotten into the bulk of my coursework on supersonic aerodynamics but this runs counter to what I do know on the subject.

In this case I believe you would have oblique shock waves being funneled into the tip with no available exit point, thus forming a rounded high pressure region that produces a curved normal shockwave like with a blunt nosecone. This would increase drag over a perfectly sharp tip that only produces oblique waves that clear the body of the projectile.

Rottentofu
03-23-2015, 10:20 PM
Not bad, but this is about the best I have seen lately.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals-new/federal-5-56-55gr-fmj-bt-90rds-strclp.html

Buy it before they change their mind.

Your link = $0.35 per round, 20 round box (before shipping)

My link = $0.33 per round, 90 round box, on 10-round stripper clips (before shipping)

:leaving:

Ohhhhh, that IS good pricing. I just paid for the exact same deal a few weeks ago for $0.45/rd. I might grab a few boxes just to take advantage of the discount. Thanks!

ktmguy
03-23-2015, 10:30 PM
Personally, I find it difficult to justify the extra $1/round for these premium 5.56 rounds.

Thoughts?

I agree it is very hard for me to see why people would spend that much per round on 5.56. I don't have a (5.56 or 223)pea shooter but I have a scar 17 and I shoot 308. I except that FGMM 168 is about 1.25 a shot and PMC and Prvi are .50 to .80 but for the terminal ballistics of 308 I find it worth it. Paying those prices for 223 is just laughable in my opinion but to each their own.

Don't even get me started on the prices of lead free hunting ammo.:mad:

milotrain
03-23-2015, 10:35 PM
This whole thread is why you should reload.

MMXX
03-23-2015, 11:01 PM
Cheap ammo for plinking but match and hunting ammunition is nice. Rolling your own is nice too. Just wanted to add this picture.

level5bear
03-24-2015, 12:17 AM
The speed of an open tip bullet means the air traveling over the surface at that speed will fill up the cavity in the front of the bullet and the remaining air that can no longer fit in that cavity will travel as it normally does around the sides. This has the effect of the air in the cavity acting as gasses do to fill the container it is in and creating a de facto "tip" on the bullet. The cone shape is a result of the bullet traveling at supersonic speed much like the cone shape you see in YouTube videos of F-18s flying alongside aircraft carriers when traveling at Mach 1+.

Another example of a similar effect is the fluid dynamics inside the bed of a pickup truck being such that at very low speeds air does hit the tailgate and create drag but these speeds are low enough that the drag is negligible.

At higher speeds, the air travels up the windshield and over the cab into the bed due to the cavity forming an area of low pressure. After this cavity has been filled, the air creates an effect similar to (but not quite as efficient) as a tonneau cover which decreases drag.

This is why trucks that have open tailgates flapping around disrupting airflow and those with gator nets or similar cargo nets instead of tailgates are less efficient. Also a flapping tailgate puts extra stress on the cables that prevent it from falling all the way down and extra stress on the hinges.

The phenomenon you are speaking of with pickups only applies when the flow is noncompressible, which occurs at subsonic speeds. The situation is entirely different at supersonic speeds because the flow is compressible, and thus the traditional boundary layer effects no longer apply. Supersonic flow is highly unintuitive.

Do you have a third party source with actual wind tunnel testing on open tip match bullets? I am not trying to say you don't know what you are talking about, but it doesn't sound right to me. I am interested in learning more on bullet ballistics.

EDIT: I just read your earlier post about the instructor, so there is no wind tunnel test to site. I am going to try to talk to one of my professors that studies supersonic flow and see what he has to say on the subject.

bovver
03-24-2015, 7:54 AM
I like the PPU 75gr BTHP in my 16" really tightened my groups up over m193.
Plus its cheap. like $9 a box

That's good to hear, I was planning on trying this next.

Dont_Shoot_im_Chinese
03-24-2015, 7:56 AM
Depends how good of a shooter are you. If you are very consistent with your shots and do a lot of long range then maybe. It's not worth it for most people though

glock_this
03-24-2015, 8:10 AM
The problem is when you get people thinking their sub par rounds are "premium" rounds and asking $1 for a .35-.40 cent round. That is what you need to watch out for.

Ohh.. and in a SHTF scenario, I would take bulk over quality any day of the week.

Occams Rasor
03-24-2015, 8:29 AM
No direct experience with a ARs, just range observations. When people shoot the cheap ammo, they tend to get a lot of jams. One was so jammed up, there was a hold up clearing the line. The RSO was *****ing at the shooter for shooting such crap ammo and said they see bad jam ups all the time (wolf ammo). So, for practice shoot what ever. For HD go with the good stuff.

glock_this
03-24-2015, 8:34 AM
No direct experience with a ARs, just range observations. When people shoot the cheap ammo, they tend to get a lot of jams. One was so jammed up, there was a hold up clearing the line. The RSO was *****ing at the shooter for shooting such crap ammo and said they see bad jam ups all the time (wolf ammo). So, for practice shoot what ever. For HD go with the good stuff.

Maybe steel cased "Wolf", or any lacquer coated steel cased, but not "Wolf Gold" I bet. I buy and shoot the Wolf "Gold" .223 all of the time, never an issue. I would not buy or run any lacquer coated steel cased ammo through my weapons.

Thorax
03-24-2015, 8:44 AM
Match ammo for $.50 a round
http://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm/20-rd-box-223-69-grain-bthp-match-prvi-partizan-ammo-pp57

Pretty easy to find for cheaper too, if you look.

JackRydden224
03-24-2015, 9:00 AM
OP what army are you taking on with those premium 556 ammo?

milotrain
03-24-2015, 9:25 AM
The cannelure is there because there were concerns with excessive setback causing jammed rifles. This is largely mitigated using cannelure + crimp. Which I guess you could say is the military requirement but it was there for an actual purpose other than fulfilling a contract.
That is indeed what a cannelure is for but that isn't what the cannelure on the SMK 77gr is for.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/153/153017.jpg

technique
03-24-2015, 9:29 AM
Who is Juses and wtf is Cherry Picking?

Germz
03-24-2015, 10:29 AM
Cherry picking is when you pull a line of text out of a phrase and use it, out of context.

Juses..not sure why i typed that. Judas and Moses?

Thorax
03-24-2015, 11:02 AM
when you pull out and use it. not sure why i typed that

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Germz
03-24-2015, 11:13 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about.
My day hasnt started off well..and this made me laugh. Thanks for that.

Heretodaygonetomorrow
03-24-2015, 1:34 PM
I have recently joined the AR club and I'm in the process of slowly growing my 5.56 ammo stock. That's when the question hit me: Is it really worth paying $1+/round for high quality rounds like Black Hills and Hornady for SD and HD and maybe even for when SHTF?

I stock up on pistol ammo, too, and for these ammo I understand the need to pay extra money for premium rounds due to the relative lack of firepower of pistol ammo compare to rifle/shotgun ammo.

But for 5.56mm, which generates around 1000+ ft/lb, does it really make much of a difference shooting a two legged varmint with a PMC 5.56mm or a Hornady 5.56mm? Personally, I find it difficult to justify the extra $1/round for these premium 5.56 rounds.

Thoughts?

What to you consider/classify premium ammo to be? Are you talking about price, or the bullet, or the powder? Factory or Home Loaded? What are you planning on using the ammo for?

The first thing to consider is whether the ammo shoots reliably out of your gun. If your gun won't function with a bargain priced ammo, what good will the gun be when you need it?

bernieb90
03-24-2015, 3:56 PM
Black Hills OTM rounds are the 77gr match rounds and while perfectly suitable for SD, are not necessary. M193 tumbles sooner and creates some good wound channels on non-armored attackers. M855 is more suitable for attackers wearing soft body armor. Black Hills OTM and Hornady are suitable for distance although if it's the Hornady A-max then you should know some folks don't like it because the boat tail tapers off sharper which causes destabilization in flight sooner.

The hollow points in Black Hills rounds for example are NOT for mushrooming upon penetration. You'll notice the hole is very small. This has to do with aerodynamics and the fact that air is a fluid and will form into a cone shape near perfectly in the front cavity of those 77gr SMKs which aids in staying supersonic longer as does the BT.

The Black Hills rounds have a cannelure which is designed for military crimping but also has 2 more side effects. 1 is that it causes a higher tendency for the round to break apart upon impact and fragment. 2 is that it has been known to decrease accuracy due to the surface area not being uniformly undisturbed which is why MOST match ammo does not have cannelures. This accuracy difference may be insignificant to the point that it is only perceived but not experienced in rounds such as the OTM with the heavier bullets. Military rounds tend to have them for the crimping reason stated earlier.

Cannelured Hornady 75gr OTM
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest5/Test5_files/75grchart.jpg

Uncannelured 77gr Nosler OTM
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest5/Test5_files/77grchart.jpg

The cannelure has little to do with the fragmentation behavior in OTM type projectiles as the jackets are normally very thin.

Heavy OTMs have far superior terminal performance on unarmored soft targets than M193 or M855.

bernieb90
03-24-2015, 3:59 PM
That is indeed what a cannelure is for but that isn't what the cannelure on the SMK 77gr is for.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/153/153017.jpg

What is it there for then?

Click Boom
03-24-2015, 4:10 PM
Racing stripes.

milotrain
03-24-2015, 4:15 PM
What is it there for then?

I told you already. The military contract for ammunition requires a cannelure, they also require excellent accurate ammo for the AMU to shoot in competition. Sierra met the request for MK262 by making a BS cannelure 77gr SMK. Sierra tells you not to crimp their 77gr SMK with a cannelure if you call them and ask.

3GunFunShooter
03-24-2015, 4:41 PM
For my long range 3 gun ammo, I use the Black Hills 77 gr. 5.56.
I have gotten groups of 1.25" and best was .770" at 300 yards. Rifle was locked down in a sled. Rifle is a JP 18" 1-8 twist. It shocked the heck out of me for being so accurate. Problem has been to reload to match the ballistics. For short range, PMC Bronze
55gr. or American Eagle. For plinking I got some surplus Guat 55 gr. years ago and that is good to go.

bernieb90
03-24-2015, 5:06 PM
I told you already. The military contract for ammunition requires a cannelure, they also require excellent accurate ammo for the AMU to shoot in competition. Sierra met the request for MK262 by making a BS cannelure 77gr SMK. Sierra tells you not to crimp their 77gr SMK with a cannelure if you call them and ask.

Cannelured Mk262 is not what the AMU shoots in competition. Although MK262 is derived from a competition load it's role is to increase long range lethality of existing 5.56 NATO chambered rifles and carbines. Although primarily intended to be fired in the MK12 it can be fires in any 5.56 chambered automatic or semiautomatic rifle and

“It was tough convincing Sierra to put a cannelure on that bullet,” Hoffman said. “They were really concerned about destroying accuracy, but we didn’t want a bullet stuffed back into a case to render a rifle inoperable. We are big believers in Murphy. If he can get involved, it won’t happen in training; it will happen when some SF guy kicks down a door in Afghanistan.”

Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/#ixzz3VLsiPi2Q

The cannelure is there to reduce the possibility if setback resulting in a dangerous pressure spikes and feed failures in automatic weapons that are hot, and dirty in the heat of combat. MK262 is already loaded to 5.56 pressure and the addition if heat with bullet setback can cost someone their life.

Sierra is interested in selling accurate bullets and crimping reduces accuracy. This is a compromise that has to be made to prevent a dangerous failure where people's lives are on the line.

Competitors do not crimp to maximize accuracy.

highpower790
03-24-2015, 5:17 PM
Mk262 is not what the AMU shoots in competition. They shoot carefully loaded hand loads like every other competitive team does. Although MK262 is derived from a competition load it's role is to increase long range lethality of existing 5.56 NATO chambered rifles and carbines. Although primarily intended to be fired in the MK12 it can be fires in any 5.56 chambered automatic or semiautomatic rifle and carbine.

The cannelure is there to reduce the possibility if setback resulting in a dangerous pressure spikes and feed failures in automatic weapons that are hot, and dirty in the heat of combat. MK262 is already loaded to 5.56 pressure and the addition if heat with bullet setback can cost someone their life.

Sierra is interested in selling accurate bullets and crimping reduces accuracy. This is a compromise that has to be made to prevent a dangerous failure where people's lives are on the line.

Competitors do not crimp to maximize accuracy.there is more than one military team and AMU cant load for them all.
I have empty MK262 boxes that came from a marine issued for marksmanship purposes.
Some issued AMU ammo comes from Blackhills(80gr),and some of that finds its way to the AF.
The Mil teams have more than one source,but the majority for all is MK262.
What AMU will spend the time loading for are long range single round matches.

milotrain
03-24-2015, 5:22 PM
The cannelure is there to reduce the possibility if setback
Normally yes. Not in the case of the SMK 77.

MK262 is already loaded to 5.56 pressure and the addition if heat with bullet setback can cost someone their life.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
You are going to have to give me a pretty specific example of an overpressure like that occurring. I've seen the failure of a rifle with a 23gr charge of bullseye and it didn't cost the shooter his life. I've also made overspec rounds with maglength 82g bullets in much tighter chambers than 5.56 Nato and all I got was cratering.

Competitors do not crimp to maximize accuracy.
That's what I said.

bernieb90
03-24-2015, 6:04 PM
Normally yes. Not in the case of the SMK 77.


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
You are going to have to give me a pretty specific example of an overpressure like that occurring. I've seen the failure of a rifle with a 23gr charge of bullseye and it didn't cost the shooter his life. I've also made overspec rounds with maglength 82g bullets in much tighter chambers than 5.56 Nato and all I got was cratering.


That's what I said.

So my quote from the owner of Black Hills which supplies the ammunition to the military stating that the cannelure is there to reduce setback is not enough? I guess he has no idea why he is loading canellured SMK bullets by the millions.


“It was tough convincing Sierra to put a cannelure on that bullet,” Hoffman said. “They were really concerned about destroying accuracy, but we didn’t want a bullet stuffed back into a case to render a rifle inoperable. We are big believers in Murphy. If he can get involved, it won’t happen in training; it will happen when some SF guy kicks down a door in Afghanistan.”. That would be Jeff Hoffman.

Was the guy with the overcharge of bullseye being fired on by enemy insurgents at the time of his weapon failure? I never said the failure itself would kill the soldier. The enemy however quite likely will.

milotrain
03-24-2015, 6:10 PM
My guess is you assumed he meant that the cannelure on SMK77s is for reducing setback rather than Sierra put a cannelure on the SMK77 because the DOD wants a cannelure to reduce setback. That is paraphrasing what I have heard around the pits. But you know, maybe you are right, neither of us are manufacturers and I'm wrong a fair bit of the time.

With "ifs" you can fit Paris in a bottle. Better make sure they run Lapua just in case and they certainly better not be running ball powder, because that stuff is temperature sensitive and might get someone killed...

level5bear
03-24-2015, 6:58 PM
EDIT: I just read your earlier post about the instructor, so there is no wind tunnel test to site. I am going to try to talk to one of my professors that studies supersonic flow and see what he has to say on the subject.

As promised, I went in and asked some of the faculty, and was told to come in tomorrow and talk to Dr. Nossier, who is supposed to be an authority on supersonic flow theory. I did find one empirical study on OTM aerodynamics but it focused primarily on the stability differences between OTM, plastic tipped, and solid bullets.

Is anyone legitimately interested in the aerodynamic theory around OTM bullets? I don't want to derail the thread, but if people are interested I can start a new topic with a writeup on what he says tomorrow.

bernieb90
03-24-2015, 7:53 PM
That would be great. Maybe you can post it in the ammunition and reloading section. I would also like to see how meplat (nose cavity) diameter affects aerodynamics. Nosler bullets seem to have significant variation in Meplat diameter vs Sierra bullets.

milotrain
03-24-2015, 8:42 PM
Yes. Very interested.

FourT6and2
03-24-2015, 9:34 PM
Me too.

level5bear
03-24-2015, 10:31 PM
Cool :cool:. Will do, then. I am not sure how much time he will have, but I will post everything I learn.

Garandimal
03-24-2015, 11:10 PM
Military and LE experiences with the 55 FMJ round have shown it lacking.

http://www.icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Internet-Quotes.jpg


On the other hand... 55 gr. FMJ M193 is very good GP/HD/SD ammo.

RZPGSiDs5_k

50_3Yyo0Nt0




GR

ECVMatt
03-25-2015, 6:40 AM
[CENTER]http://www.icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Internet-Quotes.jpg


On the other hand... 55 gr. FMJ M193 is very good GP/HD/SD ammo.

RZPGSiDs5_k


GR

^^^^^ That video mirrored almost exactly what we saw on the many, many hogs we shot in TX. The bullet would travel through the hide and the ribs, and then just explode. I realize that it did not actually explode, but the wounds it would make were incredible. Most hogs would just drop, kick one or twice and be done. Since this was the early 90's and we did not have access to the extensive ballistic information that is now available, we thought the round would just punch right through. The ranch owner didn't really care what they did as long as pigs died. We were all amazed at what we saw. We ate a lot of those hogs and through the course of butchering them the story was almost always the same...4 to 6 inches of straight line penetration and then a violent cavity.

bernieb90
03-25-2015, 9:01 AM
^^^^^ That video mirrored almost exactly what we saw on the many, many hogs we shot in TX. The bullet would travel through the hide and the ribs, and then just explode. I realize that it did not actually explode, but the wounds it would make were incredible. Most hogs would just drop, kick one or twice and be done. Since this was the early 90's and we did not have access to the extensive ballistic information that is now available, we thought the round would just punch right through. The ranch owner didn't really care what they did as long as pigs died. We were all amazed at what we saw. We ate a lot of those hogs and through the course of butchering them the story was almost always the same...4 to 6 inches of straight line penetration and then a violent cavity.

I was curious if you ever saw any bullets that failed to yaw and fragment. Data suggest that some percentage of M193 bullets will either fragment late after significant penetration, or fail to do so within the wound track. What was the typical range at which these were fired? Also were these 20" barrels?

Dave07997S
03-25-2015, 9:25 AM
I find it laughable that some people feel that getting hit by M193 will just cause a flesh wound.


Google 5.56mm wounds and check out the Philippine policeman that got shot in the leg with a M193 round.

Dave

bernieb90
03-25-2015, 11:30 AM
I find it laughable that some people feel that getting hit by M193 will just cause a flesh wound.


Google 5.56mm wounds and check out the Philippine policeman that got shot in the leg with a M193 round.

Dave

Sometimes it is just a flesh wound. The results tend to be somewhat less predictable than other bullets that rely on expansion, or heavy OTMs that have much thinner jackets, and yaw sooner.

“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

Dave07997S
03-25-2015, 12:26 PM
Sometimes it is just a flesh wound. The results tend to be somewhat less predictable than other bullets that rely on expansion, or heavy OTMs that have much thinner jackets, and yaw sooner.

Come on, that is so rare. Their have been reports of people living after having an RPG pulled out of them..

Gruesome photo...maybe NSFW.

5.56mm leg wound M193

http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/002363/2363618.jpg

level5bear
03-25-2015, 3:01 PM
For those that are interested, I spoke to Dr Nossier today and have written a summary on the theory and empirical data involved in polymer vs open tipped bullets. It is posted in the ammo and reloading forum, and the thread is linked below

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=16035814#post16035814

level5bear
03-25-2015, 3:40 PM
Come on, that is so rare. Their have been reports of people living after having an RPG pulled out of them..

This is a great point. My cousin was reportedly hit in the torso with a 20 mm cannon in Iraq and survived.

Not sure how exactly that particular turn of events came to pass, but I believe him. He has a giant scar from it.

ECVMatt
03-25-2015, 5:29 PM
I was curious if you ever saw any bullets that failed to yaw and fragment. Data suggest that some percentage of M193 bullets will either fragment late after significant penetration, or fail to do so within the wound track. What was the typical range at which these were fired? Also were these 20" barrels?

We where shooting these out of a Remington 700 BDL and a Ruger M-77 MKII. They were both 22" barrels. Yeah, I know the whole .223/5.56 thing now, but there was not internet to learn from back then and we were 2 hours from the nearest Walmart. the .223 was not as popular as it was now and ammo was about 11 dollars for a box of 20 back then. That was a lot for the amount of shooting we had to do. The XM193 were bought for about 10 cents a round which let us shoot with impunity. Before we got the .223 rifles, we were using a .243 and a 6mm Remington. Those worked great, but were expensive to shoot.

We did have some rounds punch all the way through with no fragmentation, but I honestly couldn't give a accurate percentage. I would guess somewhere around 10%. We learned that for the bullets to work really well the shots had to be around the 200 yard mark or less. Bullied by our initial results we did shoot out to 300 to 350 yards. At this distance I would say the fragmentation rate was about 50/50. When the bullets failed to fragment at distance, they would still tend to displace tissue. I am not sure if they tumbled, but did not fragment. They were definitely not a through and through wound though. For the longer shots, we would go back to the .243/6mm rifles.

The vast majority of our pigs were in the 90 to 150 range. As they matured and spread the average moved to the 150-225 pound range. This was about the time I was leaving, so I didn't get many of the bigger hogs. The bullets worked good on both sizes and maybe even a bit better on the bigger hogs. Sometimes on the little pigs the bullets would penetrate too far, miss the vitals, and blow a big hole on the opposing side. They would usually die, but not as quick. Most of my photos were taken with an actual camera that used film, so I will try and find some if people are interested. I was not photographing wounds, but they are visible in some pictures.

I am not a LE or military, so I am not trying to comment from that perspective, but I have a very healthy respect for this round and what it did to a pile of pigs.

bernieb90
03-26-2015, 12:46 PM
We where shooting these out of a Remington 700 BDL and a Ruger M-77 MKII. They were both 22" barrels. Yeah, I know the whole .223/5.56 thing now, but there was not internet to learn from back then and we were 2 hours from the nearest Walmart. the .223 was not as popular as it was now and ammo was about 11 dollars for a box of 20 back then. That was a lot for the amount of shooting we had to do. The XM193 were bought for about 10 cents a round which let us shoot with impunity. Before we got the .223 rifles, we were using a .243 and a 6mm Remington. Those worked great, but were expensive to shoot.

We did have some rounds punch all the way through with no fragmentation, but I honestly couldn't give a accurate percentage. I would guess somewhere around 10%. We learned that for the bullets to work really well the shots had to be around the 200 yard mark or less. Bullied by our initial results we did shoot out to 300 to 350 yards. At this distance I would say the fragmentation rate was about 50/50. When the bullets failed to fragment at distance, they would still tend to displace tissue. I am not sure if they tumbled, but did not fragment. They were definitely not a through and through wound though. For the longer shots, we would go back to the .243/6mm rifles.

The vast majority of our pigs were in the 90 to 150 range. As they matured and spread the average moved to the 150-225 pound range. This was about the time I was leaving, so I didn't get many of the bigger hogs. The bullets worked good on both sizes and maybe even a bit better on the bigger hogs. Sometimes on the little pigs the bullets would penetrate too far, miss the vitals, and blow a big hole on the opposing side. They would usually die, but not as quick. Most of my photos were taken with an actual camera that used film, so I will try and find some if people are interested. I was not photographing wounds, but they are visible in some pictures.

I am not a LE or military, so I am not trying to comment from that perspective, but I have a very healthy respect for this round and what it did to a pile of pigs.

Thank you so much for the detailed post. That really helps confirm what the data show. I have trying to make the point that even a 10% failure rate of fragmentation is too high in my opinion for defensive ammunition. We have no control over the physical constitution of the threat, or their level of nourishment.

The possibility of the attacker being a thinner drug addict, combined with a 10%-15% overall failure to yaw and fragment creates a possibility that M193 will not be as effective as required in a life, and death situation.

My opinion is that softpoint loads who's terminal performance is much less velocity dependent, and is not yaw dependent provides greater reliability, and versatility. Heavy OTM style projectiles seem to also show less variance in neck length, and fragmentation reliability than M193.

ECVMatt
03-26-2015, 9:13 PM
B90- I think that you are mostly correct, but I wouldn't confuse a lack of fragmentation with a lack of killing. I would also point out that most of our shooting was done around the 200 yard range. This is well beyond what most people could justify for self defense. I honestly can't tell you an actual failure rate for the -100 yard range, but my best recollection is that the results were overwhelmingly devastating. I agree that a good SP will most likely perform over a broader velocity range, but I am confident that the M193 works very well for my needs.

Albs
03-29-2015, 10:09 PM
No direct experience with a ARs, just range observations. When people shoot the cheap ammo, they tend to get a lot of jams. One was so jammed up, there was a hold up clearing the line. The RSO was *****ing at the shooter for shooting such crap ammo and said they see bad jam ups all the time (wolf ammo). So, for practice shoot what ever. For HD go with the good stuff.

Tell those that jam up to get a better rifle :oji:, my first round through my BCM rifle was Tula, I've ran more steel case through my rifle than brass. 0 issues with them :D.

If SHTF, I want to make sure my rifle can run any ammo I throw in it.

dtrump
03-30-2015, 12:27 AM
Exactly. I've smashed on hogs with M193, M855, and even M856.
They're an invasive species and with the amount of killing there is to do, who wants to spend the kinda money on performance ammunition?

I've seen big hogs slump over dead from a single well placed body shot of FMJ.
When can i bring my scar out to hunt some hogs with you? Lol. I have never had interest in deer huntung really but i just wanna smash hogs with you with my scar.

Mail Clerk
03-30-2015, 5:03 AM
All I shoot is paper targets most of the time and so the ammo I like is what can be shot off the dealer shelves in consistent quantity.

In good working order personally like PMC products but they don't offer the "Military or Target" versions anymore. Now it seems American Eagle ammo is coming in large quantities and has over shadowed PMC.

Mail Clerk

Lightstrider
03-30-2015, 7:18 AM
1,000 rounds of M193 for 37 cents a round or 1,200 rounds of M855 for 45 cents a round at SGAmmo. Either one would be a good start for your stock and are both sufficient for SHTF/SD. If you really want to get into the ballistics, wounds, percentages and science then by all means do it, or maybe you can find a better deal financially. But then you can experiment with a few boxes of 69gr, 75gr, 77gr, etc SMK's or TAP style just in case you can get more precision from your shooting if possible or desired. OR you could just buy the reloading setup and supplies and start from scratch to figure out what truly is best for you and will save you even more money.

technique
03-30-2015, 9:51 AM
When can i bring my scar out to hunt some hogs with you? Lol. I have never had interest in deer huntung really but i just wanna smash hogs with you with my scar.

I went out to Texas.
One of the things I've missed about California is the Hog Hunting. We don't have any here.

geoint
03-30-2015, 12:22 PM
So you're talking about using an AR for self defense? I assume that those Hornady rounds and the other high quality AR ammo is intended mostly for hunters, I agree that standard 5.56 55 grain FMJ is good enough to drop someone in self defense.

If you get a headshot maybe. There are tons of stories of scrawny starving afghans surviving multiple hits from 5.56 and continuing to fight for a long time***. Now yes, obviously the military has to follow the geneva convention and use inferior ammo, and enough shots will kill anybody. But why use a crappy round that takes 5 shots to incapacitate someone when 1 or 2 would do the same job if you just bought quality ammo (or a better caliber :D )

***Now yes, many of them were probably doped up for the fight, but whats to say criminals here dont get high before they commit crimes?

geoint
03-30-2015, 12:25 PM
I've killed a lot of things with FMJ.

The wounds and wound channels are very different between a ballistic projectile and a non-ballistic projectile. The end result was the same though. Death.
If you think you'll be shooting something up close and your goal is incapacitation as quickly as possible, consider a ballistic projectile.

Otherwise, poke more holes than one can plug with 2 hands.

I like your style ;)

J_Rock
04-02-2015, 9:00 PM
I have recently joined the AR club and I'm in the process of slowly growing my 5.56 ammo stock. That's when the question hit me: Is it really worth paying $1+/round for high quality rounds like Black Hills and Hornady for SD and HD and maybe even for when SHTF?

I stock up on pistol ammo, too, and for these ammo I understand the need to pay extra money for premium rounds due to the relative lack of firepower of pistol ammo compare to rifle/shotgun ammo.

But for 5.56mm, which generates around 1000+ ft/lb, does it really make much of a difference shooting a two legged varmint with a PMC 5.56mm or a Hornady 5.56mm? Personally, I find it difficult to justify the extra $1/round for these premium 5.56 rounds.

Thoughts?

Absolutely. Remember .223 is already a small caliber round so making up the difference is critical by using properly designed self defense ammo. For example PMC vs hornady. That PMC probably wont fragment and just cause an icepick wound while the hornady will fragment causing alot of a damage.

You dont need to crazy by buying tons of the expensive stuff just a few boxes for self defense and rest can be cheap blasting ammo.

J_Rock
04-02-2015, 9:06 PM
I've killed a lot of things with FMJ.

The wounds and wound channels are very different between a ballistic projectile and a non-ballistic projectile. The end result was the same though. Death.
If you think you'll be shooting something up close and your goal is incapacitation as quickly as possible, consider a ballistic projectile.

Otherwise, poke more holes than one can plug with 2 hands.

I like your style ;)

Except its completely unrealistic...

So your argument is to shoot them more? Defensive situations often occur in low light against moving targets. More often than not you will only get a fleeting glimpse at the bad guy as he moves towards cover so I want my hits to count. Most bad guys wont just stand there and let your pump 5-10 rounds into them...

Even at close range I want the rounds that do the most damage so the bad guy doesnt shoot me full of holes while it takes 15-20 secs for him to bleed out and lose consciousness.

Garandimal
04-03-2015, 9:46 PM
Thank you so much for the detailed post. That really helps confirm what the data show. I have trying to make the point that even a 10% failure rate of fragmentation is too high in my opinion for defensive ammunition. We have no control over the physical constitution of the threat, or their level of nourishment....

You must be joking.

If you actually have to shoot?

Two(2) rounds in the thoracic triangle, followed by One(1) in the melon If they are still up.

stick and sponge time.


You live in an academic world.




GR

Crusader
04-04-2015, 6:52 AM
I can't understand where this lack of confidence in the 5.56x45 round comes from... this is a round that has 60 years of service in military and law enforcement with only a small percentage of very heavily over-inflated failures.
Everyone knows of "a bunch of _________" peoples who were hit by multiple rounds of 5.56 and fought on. I have many friends in the Marines and US Army who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan on multiple tours who swear by their M4s. Good enough for me. If they have been in the **** and used their weapons in combat and found them acceptable, that's all that matters to me.

Having said that, yes I do use a special round for my AR for home defense. I use Hornady 75gr 5.56 Match ammo, which is an OTM type bullet. The reason for this is that at ranges inside my home (approximately 40 feet for the longest shot) the round will still tumble and do its work while delivering more foot pounds of energy on target. According to the ballistics gel tests I've seen, it also seems to tumble and fragment in basically all tests and has little to no overpenetration.

People have their opinions. In my opinion, it is fortunate that so many people dislike the 5.56mm round..... it just means more for me to stock up on.

Garandimal
04-04-2015, 8:24 PM
In 1977 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO), NATO members signed an agreement to select a second, smaller caliber cartridge to replace the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge.[8] Of the cartridges tendered, the 5.56×45mm NATO was successful, but not the 55 gr M193 round used by the U.S. at that time. The wounds produced by the M193 round were so devastating that many[9] consider it to be inhumane.[10][11] Instead, the Belgian 62 gr SS109 round was chosen for standardization. The SS109 used a heavier bullet with a steel tip and had a lower muzzle velocity for better long-range performance, specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters. This requirement made the SS109 (M855) round less capable of fragmentation than the M193 and was considered more humane.[12]

I like inhumane in an SD round.




GR

bernieb90
04-05-2015, 11:40 PM
You must be joking.

If you actually have to shoot?

Two(2) rounds in the thoracic triangle, followed by One(1) in the melon If they are still up.

stick and sponge time.


You live in an academic world.




GR

Let me get this straight you expect to be able to shoot that well under stress with 100% certainty with a lethal threat potentially feet away from you, and I am living in an academic world. What happens when you only get one shot before they are on top of you? What happens when the only available target is an extremity? You have no plan B other than perfectly executing a shooting drill performed on a one dimensional range under extreme stress in a dynamic 3 dimensional world.

milotrain
04-06-2015, 9:33 AM
Stop.

You can make an academic argument for anything. It is of no interest to anyone. What happens when you only have one shot and the enemy has body armor with a plate on top? What then? With enough "ifs" you can fit Paris in a bottle.