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tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 11:15 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/10/atf-shelves-controversial-bullet-ban-proposal/

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is shelving a controversial proposal to ban a popular type of bullet, amid opposition from hundreds of congressional lawmakers.

The ATF said in a statement on Tuesday it would not seek to issue the final guidelines "at this time." The proposal pertained to M855 "green tip" ammunition, used in the AR-15 rifle; regulators looked at banning it because can pierce police body armor.

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 11:24 AM
Wooot. We win!

subrvin
03-10-2015, 11:25 AM
Well that didn't take long, haha! Now the flippers can go back to flipping .22lr.

ez2b
03-10-2015, 11:41 AM
^^^^^^lol

RookieShooter
03-10-2015, 11:46 AM
I love it!!!
Great to see all the Flippers got stuck with overpriced "Green Tip" ammo, especially those who were trying to sell at $1/rd.

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 11:55 AM
Just wait for the next panic boys and girls.

Those who do not learn from the past. . .

JackRydden224
03-10-2015, 11:57 AM
Just wait for the next panic boys and girls.

Those who do not learn from the past. . .

The smart ones buy when the price are down. We collect ammo over a long period of time so we never have to panic buy. It's too late when the panic starts.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 12:06 PM
I'll admit, I bought during the panic, but only paid 40 cents/round, so I don't feel like it was a total ripoff, I just considered the added cost "insurance". I was running low on 5.56 anyways. So I wasted maybe $50-$100 on 1000 rounds, but most of us also waste more than that every month on car insurance that we never use.

Yes, it's smart to stock up before there is a panic, but the problem is we never know what the next panic will be. Maybe there will be a proposed ban on polymer handguns in the future? That doesn't mean we should all run out and stockpile Glocks while the prices are down...

adam6955
03-10-2015, 12:11 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher? If you have an opportunity to make money off of somebody less prepared or knowledgable, and they are fine with paying, who cares??

It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...

ReddingShooter
03-10-2015, 12:12 PM
big r sporting goods had a sale quite some time back, $249 for 1000rd boxes of 62gr green........stocked up myself

2zero9
03-10-2015, 12:14 PM
Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher?

Yeah. I hate them too.

But, sometimes I have no choice lol

ReddingShooter
03-10-2015, 12:15 PM
cause flippers are opportunists. they will buy ,say 22lr for $15 a brick and buy 3-5 cases, then try to *** pound the public at $75-$100 a brick on craigslist or the local want ads....

i had a buddy sometime back that bought is son a nice ruger 10/22 cheap, then he put an ad on craigslist explaining he needed to find a brick of 22 for his 10yr old son. he got 27 emails in 24 hours from flippers wanting stupid prices. one guy wanted $250 bucks for a brick of CCI mini mags.....WTF........he paid $100 FOR THE GUN!

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 12:17 PM
Calguns is filled with feint hearted conservatives that hate capitalism when it does not go their way.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 12:17 PM
big r sporting goods had a sale quite some time back, $249 for 1000rd boxes of 62gr green........stocked up myself

Wow, even for non-panic times, that's a really good deal. I'm guessing it'll take a couple months for inventories to get back to pre-panic levels, but when they do I'll definitely be on the lookout for deals like that. My last pre-panic green-tip purchase was a box of 120 at walmart for like $59... that's 10 cents more per round than i paid after the panic started.

nedro
03-10-2015, 12:18 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher? If you have an opportunity to make money off of somebody less prepared or knowledgable, and they are fine with paying, who cares??

It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...
Because there is a difference between buying wholesale with a license and a consumer off the street taking away stock for the sole purpose of driving up the market though extortion.

ReddingShooter
03-10-2015, 12:19 PM
AMEN Nedro!

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 12:20 PM
The funny thing is 855 ammo sucks. It isn't accurate and most ranges in CA don't allow it during the summer (and shooting it on BLM during the summer is irresponsible).

The unfortunate thing is the panic buying of 855 has driven the prices up on all 223/556 ammo. Because of that, I am glad these flippers are likely going to be selling at a loss.

Buying at retail for resale is a business for suckers.

ReddingShooter
03-10-2015, 12:23 PM
its accurate Tonyxcom, depending on your rifle and your rifling twist rate. i have a 1:7 and it shoots 62gr greens like a laser beam.....

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 12:24 PM
Because there is a difference between buying wholesale with a license and a consumer off the street taking away stock for the sole purpose of driving up the market though extortion.

It's not extortion, nobody is making people buy the ammo back from them.

This is exactly the same principle as trading stocks. When you buy stocks, you hope that there will be some kind of buying frenzy for that stock later, so that you can sell your shares to other people for a higher price. Stocks, land, gold, ammo... it's all the same thing.

adam6955
03-10-2015, 12:24 PM
cause flippers are opportunists. they will buy ,say 22lr for $15 a brick and buy 3-5 cases, then try to *** pound the public at $75-$100 a brick on craigslist or the local want ads....


I get it.

If you draw a parallel to the guy who opens a convenience store in an area that does not have one, the guy who is seizing opportunity and making more money by charging higher prices for convenience, whats the difference? Both are taking a risk and putting out capital to invest in the possibility or a return or gain.

So again I ask, why all the hate? Is it because they are buying the ammo that you wanted but could not afford, or were not prepared to buy when it was cheap?

Anyone who wants cheap'ish .22 can stand in line at Walmart at 0600 with the neckbeards. If I wanted it I would, or I would pay inflated prices so I could stay in my warm bed and dream of all the hateful things to post about flippers!!

nedro
03-10-2015, 12:27 PM
The funny thing is 855 ammo sucks. It isn't accurate and most ranges in CA don't allow it during the summer (and shooting it on BLM during the summer is irresponsible).
Buying at retail for resale is a business for suckers.
I admit my ignorance in your statement here.
What is so bad about the green tips. I have some and just want to know.

Zartan
03-10-2015, 12:27 PM
HA! Well that was quick. Glad I was happy with the 600 that I have just sitting in storage mode.

adam6955
03-10-2015, 12:28 PM
FYI just playing Devil's Advocate here because it is early, I have coffee, and it is kind of fun haha. It irritates me too, but as many point out it is a fair part of a capitalist society. If you want it, buy it cheap and stack it deep!! It does suck for the new guys though...being one of them, there are many things that I pay inflated prices for. YOu get tired of hearing about $99 FAL kits that are now on the marketplace for $800+, $200 Saigas, etc.

Because there is a difference between buying wholesale with a license and a consumer off the street taking away stock for the sole purpose of driving up the market though extortion.

True, but it is a product that we all essentially have the same access to. Also it is legal (although probably not in CA haha) to sell things without a business license...although many of these flippers are probably on a scale where they should be reporting profits and operating with a license.

It's not extortion, nobody is making people buy the ammo back from them.

This is exactly the same principle as trading stocks. When you buy stocks, you hope that there will be some kind of buying frenzy for that stock later, so that you can sell your shares to other people for a higher price. Stocks, land, gold, ammo... it's all the same thing.

Well said.

xXRifleManXx
03-10-2015, 12:29 PM
Vote with your dollars folks...if you don't like what they're selling don't buy. Though I admit my emotional reaction is thinking those people a d bags.

The real question is how are the powers that be going to keep all of the war surplus off the market.

nedro
03-10-2015, 12:31 PM
I get it.

If you draw a parallel to the guy who opens a convenience store in an area that does not have one, the guy who is seizing opportunity and making more money by charging higher prices for convenience, whats the difference? Both are taking a risk and putting out capital to invest in the possibility or a return or gain.

So again I ask, why all the hate? Is it because they are buying the ammo that you wanted but could not afford, or were not prepared to buy when it was cheap?

Anyone who wants cheap'ish .22 can stand in line at Walmart at 0600 with the neckbeards. If I wanted it I would, or I would pay inflated prices so I could stay in my warm bed and dream of all the hateful things to post about flippers!!
When you are stuck after a disaster and someone walks past you to sell his water to the guy next to you because he has 100 silver coins to give him, I'll ask you the same question.
Taking advantage of another's misfortune is what is going on here.
They are being snakes of the lowest proportion, period. If you really can't see that, there really isn't anything else to debate or talk about on this subject with you.

ReddingShooter
03-10-2015, 12:36 PM
im flush on ammo myself, probably enough to last me, my son, and his kids the rest of our lives. plus i reload (I used to work at RCBS), so for the most part we have an unlimited supply for everything we shoot with the exception of shotgun and 22, and im pretty flush on both of those too.on occasion if i find a deal ill buy factory ammo if its cheap enough, but tweaked over it and cant afford to pick the stuff up?..i was a firearms dealer for almost 20 years, and im retired, everything i own is paid for in cash and in full and i have a fairly healthy income. i could afford to buy all i wanted if i wanted.....as far as flippers, i put that in line with price gouging myself.

TurboChrisB
03-10-2015, 12:38 PM
It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...

I disagree....it's taking advantage. And I don't like being taken advantage of. My Walmart, grocery store and LGS DON'T take advantage of me....that's why they get my business.

My business is in manufacturing (printing).I don't take advantage of my customers. It's NOT a retail/wholesale thing that's going on here. I price my stuff competitively and fairly. I do a lot of wholesale work for other printing companies. When one of them calls and there equipment is down and they have to have a job done for a customer and they're at my mercy.....I don't DOUBLE their cost....I do it at the same price as always because we're part of a community (the other print shops in my area)
Just like I'd like to think Calguns is a community. But when you jump on a opportunity to take advantage of the others here...that's not someone I want in MY circle of gun friends.

freebug
03-10-2015, 12:40 PM
Here's the issue. The ATF statement is only a temporary pause to evaluate the responses. No where did the ATF say that it will not take action in the future.

We need to keep the pressure on.

As for the flippers, sorry. You guys might just have to eat it for a while.

roger1022
03-10-2015, 12:42 PM
Key phrase to note is "at this time". That means this proposal can return at any time, so folks be vigilant.

nedro
03-10-2015, 12:44 PM
Vote with your dollars folks...if you don't like what they're selling don't buy. Though I admit my emotional reaction is thinking those people a d bags.

The real question is how are the powers that be going to keep all of the war surplus off the market.
What drives most people nuts is that this site does not allow for people to tell these scum bags off or to warn others.
It allows for snakes in the grass. Be careful out there.

lone shooter
03-10-2015, 12:46 PM
It does suck for the new guys though...being one of them, there are many things that I pay inflated prices for. YOu get tired of hearing about $99 FAL kits that are now on the marketplace for $800+, $200 Saigas, etc.

Just wait, in 10 years, you'll be posting too "I remember being able to buy xm855 for .40 per round."

I'm new too but have learned when I good deal comes along you pounce on it because chances are it will be sold out later.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 12:47 PM
Ammo flippers are the same as any other type of investor. Sometimes the risk pays off, sometimes it doesn't, and those who chose not to invest get mad when they see those who did making money. And those who lose money get mad when the risk didn't pay off. That's the way free-market and capitalism work. Either learn to deal with it, or move to a communist country where everything has price-controls.

Did people call you a "snake" for buying a house, thus taking one out of the market and driving up everyone else's property values? When you sell your house, are you going to ask for the same price that you paid, even if it's value has gone up 50%? Because by your logic, you would be a snake if you took advantage of the current market value to make profit.

TurboChrisB
03-10-2015, 12:49 PM
When you are stuck after a disaster and someone walks past you to sell his water to the guy next to you because he has 100 silver coins to give him, I'll ask you the same question.
Taking advantage of another's misfortune is what is going on here.
They are being snakes of the lowest proportion, period. If you really can't see that, there really isn't anything else to debate or talk about on this subject with you.

And LOTS of people believe that "buyer beware" allows them to say....sell a car with a major known issue......but hey, if the buyer doesn't ask...then it's on them and they just cite "capitalism"

Doesn't make it any less wrong.

The guy linked above selling ammo for a buck a round? Yeah, I wouldn't want to buy a car from HIM. He's an opportunist.

tacticalcity
03-10-2015, 12:51 PM
I don't sell ammo for number of reasons, most of which are beyond my control, but I have to comment on this as it is a pet peeve of mine.

You guys have been living in California for too long because all that communism disguised as harmless socialism taught in our schools has managed, despite your best efforts, to infect your brains.

It is a free market economy. That is one of the many things that makes our country great.

Things are worth what people will pay for them. Good old supply and demand. As supply decreases, and demand increases, prices rise. And so long as people are willing to pay those prices, all is working as it should. If they had not been willing to pay those prices, the market would have corrected it self sooner and the prices would have immediately fallen.

That doesn't make the seller a scumbag. That makes them both smart, and fortunate to be in the position to make a profit beyond the piddly 20-30% he normally gets. After all most industries afford upwards of a 50% markup even in hard times.

By your logic you would be a scumbag for selling your house for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for selling a stock or a bond for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for accepting the interesting on a savings account or IRA. If you paid attention in school you would know Carl Marx took the same line of though you're taking.

I'm not trying to insult you...just trying to point out the flaw in your logic. There is nothing wrong with making a profit on an investment.

And just like with stocks and bonds, and even homes, sometimes your investment pays off and some times it doesn't. That's life.

Joe Kidd
03-10-2015, 12:52 PM
There is a certain sense of camaradrie and fair play among most shooters and hunters, so as a matter of course they take satisfaction when the greedy get their just desserts for taking advantage of others in a crisis. Other's mileage may vary of course.

nedro
03-10-2015, 12:52 PM
Ammo flippers are the same as any other type of investor. Sometimes the risk pays off, sometimes it doesn't, and those who chose not to invest get mad when they see those who did making money. And those who lose money get mad when the risk didn't pay off. That's the way free-market and capitalism work. Either learn to deal with it, or move to a communist country where everything has price-controls.

Did people call you a "snake" for buying a house, thus taking one out of the market and driving up everyone else's property values? When you sell your house, are you going to ask for the same price that you paid, even if it's value has gone up 50%? Because by your logic, you would be a snake if you took advantage of the current market value to make profit.
No merit what-so-ever, and quite lame to boot.
Stretching as an ultimate art form. You sure your name isn't Stretch Armstrong?

TurboChrisB
03-10-2015, 12:53 PM
No, but if you had a house in New Orleans and after Katrina all the homes went up 25% and you listed yours for 50% more? Than Yeah, you'd be a snake or at the very least.......greedy.


Did people call you a "snake" for buying a house, thus taking one out of the market and driving up everyone else's property values? When you sell your house, are you going to ask for the same price that you paid, even if it's value has gone up 50%? Because by your logic, you would be a snake if you took advantage of the current market value to make profit.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 12:54 PM
And LOTS of people believe that "buyer beware" allows them to say....sell a car with a major known issue......but hey, if the buyer doesn't ask...then it's on them and they just cite "capitalism"

Doesn't make it any less wrong.

The guy linked above selling ammo for a buck a round? Yeah, I wouldn't want to buy a car from HIM. He's an opportunist.

You're comparing apples and oranges. If nothing is "wrong" with the ammo, then it's not the same thing as selling a car that has something wrong with it.

The idiot selling ammo for a buck a round is better compared to somebody who's selling a new toyota pickup truck with 0 miles for $250,000. He's not hiding anything or lying, he's just not very good at selling cars. But if someone comes along and is happy to pay $250,000 for a truck they could buy down the street for $35,000, then more power to him.

odysseus
03-10-2015, 12:55 PM
The price of a home is really set by the buyer if the seller decides to accept.

No, but if you had a house in New Orleans and after Katrina all the homes went up 25% and you listed yours for 50% more? Than Yeah, you'd be a snake or at the very least.......greedy.

bovver
03-10-2015, 12:58 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher? If you have an opportunity to make money off of somebody less prepared or knowledgable, and they are fine with paying, who cares??

It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...

Because it's proftieering,price gouging, not exactly the same thing.
But on the other side I'm not a fan of big business either because I feel they borderline the same dubious bs.

magnusson
03-10-2015, 1:00 PM
Fruck this "Free Market" nonsense on CGN and Fruck this administration. Panic buyers have fun shooting your 7 dollar mags of "armor piercing ammo" and panic sellers hope your happy making an extra 50 bucks on these fools. Your half tank of diesel or crappy meal must be nice. If you got on the panic sell of this crap ammo YOU support this administration, LOL!

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 1:01 PM
No, but if you had a house in New Orleans and after Katrina all the homes went up 25% and you listed yours for 50% more? Than Yeah, you'd be a snake or at the very least.......greedy.

I would call that person both greedy, and a terrible investor. His house simply would not sell for 25% over current value, and he'd be stuck with it, just like the guy asking too much for his ammo. If I posted a listing for a $1million ford fiesta, that doesn't make me a snake, it just makes me seriously over-optimistic. But hey, if someone comes along and says "I'll take it, here's a check!", I'm sure not going to turn them away. And neither would you.

JackRydden224
03-10-2015, 1:09 PM
What gets people is that flippers solely exist to take advantage of fellow gun owners. You can definitely say they are in the "business" but they are not really an established for profit business. The end result might be the same but the process is quite different.

Oh well, I just stick to my principles do never panic buy. I looked at the grip tips and figured that I can't shoot that in most SoCal ranges so I don't want it at all.

HOGDOG1955
03-10-2015, 1:10 PM
ok, i have made 5 dry runs to town looking for 22 since the last time i found some. since i make a special trip to town and back for ammo it costs me over a gallon of gas each trip. so since i found 22 today if i add the gas in then todays ammo cost me18 bucks in gas plus the $40.98 for the 2 boxes of federal automatch. so $58.98/ $29.49 per box/.or just over 9 cents per round.
think about this before you slam folks who resell their ammo maybe.

CrossedRifles
03-10-2015, 1:10 PM
Because there is a difference between buying wholesale with a license and a consumer off the street taking away stock for the sole purpose of driving up the market though extortion.

ex·tor·tion
noun
the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

Noone is holding a gun to your head, guy. It is your right to move on and not purchase. CTD is technically a licensed seller, they still flip the **** out of everyone.

Simply move on, curse at yourself for not buying when prices were low, and deal with it. Instead of whine that people are selling items for what people can and will buy it for.

Not everyone buys stock for the sole purpose of selling it later, either. I know I was stuck with a lot of XM855 when it hit, and I didn't feel like shooting at 50+ cents a round, so someone traded XM193 at a good ratio.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 1:13 PM
What gets people is that flippers solely exist to take advantage of fellow gun owners.

And house flippers take advantage of families looking for shelter. And car sellers take advantage of people who need to get to work. And stock traders take advantage of people looking to build up a retirement portfolio. And farmers take advantage of people trying to put food on their table. Want me to keep going?

FeuerFrei
03-10-2015, 1:15 PM
This is a temporary movement by ATF. Like a traffic jam. Just because we see a little movement doesn't mean you're getting anywhere.

Panic buyers always get screwed.
The key is to NEVER put oneself in the position to be a panic buyer.
The ammo is never going to be worth nothing. Glass half full?

magnusson
03-10-2015, 1:17 PM
ok, i have made 5 dry runs to town looking for 22 since the last time i found some. since i make a special trip to town and back for ammo it costs me over a gallon of gas each trip. so since i found 22 today if i add the gas in then todays ammo cost me18 bucks in gas plus the $40.98 for the 2 boxes of federal automatch. so $58.98/ $29.49 per box/.or just over 9 cents per round.
think about this before you slam folks who resell their ammo maybe.
Daddy when I grow up I want to be a ammo flipper. I'll get up real early and stand in line with the unemployed and when I sell it I'll make sure to charge for my gas money and labor as well.

IEatZ28
03-10-2015, 1:19 PM
Well damn, I was hoping to trade my 40 rounds of green tip for a new truck.

Suck it flippers.

glock_this
03-10-2015, 1:20 PM
I felt and stated this would go this way in several other threads before this news hit, I got poo'd on, and what do we have happen......

Weeks ago, in a PM to a guy here, I surmised this ban may not happen.

Fantastic. I Personally do not care what their reason for backing off is, they backed off. That is what matters to me. But the groundswell of political opposition, the legal issues raised about the 2 criteria the ATF were using as reasons, the "ooops it was a clerical error" all just kept pointing - to me - this was not going to happen.

sportDogger
03-10-2015, 1:29 PM
I don't hate the flippers. Hell I hate the buyers. Everyone always waits to stock up.. just get what you can when you can and soon enough you'll have a stock pile. I had 3 m&p 15 sports after that school shooting I sold each one for $1800 I think I bought each one for around 599. I didn't buy with the intention of selling them I bought them because I wanted them but when there was no AR's in sight I decided to let 3 of them go and you know what I did? I waited until panic was over and bought alot more than 3 AR'S :) the buyers drive up the prices not the sellers.
I don't sell ammo for number of reasons, most of which are beyond my control, but I have to comment on this as it is a pet peeve of mine.

You guys have been living in California for too long because all that communism disguised as harmless socialism taught in our schools has managed, despite your best efforts, to infect your brains.

It is a free market economy. That is one of the many things that makes our country great.

Things are worth what people will pay for them. Good old supply and demand. As supply decreases, and demand increases, prices rise. And so long as people are willing to pay those prices, all is working as it should. If they had not been willing to pay those prices, the market would have corrected it self sooner and the prices would have immediately fallen.

That doesn't make the seller a scumbag. That makes them both smart, and fortunate to be in the position to make a profit beyond the piddly 20-30% he normally gets. After all most industries afford upwards of a 50% markup even in hard times.

By your logic you would be a scumbag for selling your house for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for selling a stock or a bond for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for accepting the interesting on a savings account or IRA. If you paid attention in school you would know Carl Marx took the same line of though you're taking.

I'm not trying to insult you...just trying to point out the flaw in your logic. There is nothing wrong with making a profit on an investment.

And just like with stocks and bonds, and even homes, sometimes your investment pays off and some times it doesn't. That's life.

2zero9
03-10-2015, 1:32 PM
:lurk5:
lol. This thread became really good!

Androsynth
03-10-2015, 1:37 PM
Does it make a difference that the hoarding only happens when there is the possibility of a shortage? Retailers usually have a pretty consistent inventory that is re-stocked (usually) on a regular basis. Eliminating supply so that people are forced to buy from you in a 'crisis' doesn't feel quite the same as regularly carrying a product and marking it up a bit. I have more of a visceral reaction to the percieved price gouging, although logically one could say that it is all capitalism.

SDM44
03-10-2015, 1:40 PM
LOL at the people mad at the "flippers" from this.

Flippers are people who buy low for the sole purpose to sell high, with the least amount of time spent possible in order to recoup their money put into it. Therefore, one would have had to buy lots of M855 right when the initial ATF story leaked on that Saturday afternoon some weeks ago, and buy up tons of M855 on multiple websites before those websites caught on and had a chance to raise their prices, just for the sole purpose of reselling it for a quick profit.

I on the other hand, like lots of other people on here, already had a stash of M855 green tip ammo for some time now. We didn't have any intention of selling it, but bought it last year when it was cheap. When we decided to sell some or most of our M855 stash to make a few extra bucks during this time, most did so probably with the intention to use that money and buy more guns and other ammo, thus keeping the economic flow in the gun industry.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 1:44 PM
:lurk5:
lol. This thread became really good!

I knew it would. Flipper's stock just TANKED!

starsnuffer
03-10-2015, 1:48 PM
I support freedom and capitalism and screw communism! Oh wait, you mean I gotta pay more? Hail Stalin!

That's how I read this thread.

-W

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 1:49 PM
Does it make a difference that the hoarding only happens when there is the possibility of a shortage? Retailers usually have a pretty consistent inventory that is re-stocked (usually) on a regular basis. Eliminating supply so that people are forced to buy from you in a 'crisis' doesn't feel quite the same as regularly carrying a product and marking it up a bit. I have more of a visceral reaction to the percieved price gouging, although logically one could say that it is all capitalism.

To do what you're suggesting the flippers were trying to do, would require massive capital, and would be equated to stock price manipulation - an individual artificially driving up the price by buying up the supply. I agree that would be unethical, but I highly doubt any flippers really had that in mind when they were stockpiling. And if that was their intention, then yes, that would be both unethical and quite stupid as well.

stand125
03-10-2015, 1:54 PM
Has anyone ever told a person I'll take it but for 25% more because the seller is selling for what is considered to cheap ( I doubt it ). And honestly if during a panic buying spree if you sell for to little then people will just buy from you to gouge others the next day. Comparing water after a hurricane is stupid because you need water to live, you don't need M855 ammo to survive, well not yett anyways. It's more of people are impatiant and if they are willing to pay $1.00 a round then let them. It is frustrating to see the ridiculous prices during a panic but who am I to be the AMMO PRICE CONTROL CZAR.

If the price is to high then it won't sell on these forums. People know better and if they don't then they should have googled and found out really quick

SDM44
03-10-2015, 1:56 PM
I knew it would. Flipper's stock just TANKED!

A flipper's stock only only have gotten tanked if they bought at a high price and were trying to unload at an even higher price.

Those who bought M855 for less than $.30/round (I bought mine last year at $.27/round when 55gr was temporarily dried up), and who didn't get a chance to flip it still bought the ammo at a good price, so no harm there if they decide to sell to break even or just keep it.

It's the flippers who saw the prices jumping up and bought M855 when it was $.45 or $.50 per found, and tried to sell it for $.80 - $1 a round. IMO, those idiots wasted $500 on a case of ammo that you could easily buy for $300 or less with shipping included.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 1:56 PM
I support freedom and capitalism and screw communism! Oh wait, you mean I gotta pay more? Hail Stalin!

That's how I read this thread.

-W

Capitalism means we don't feel sorry for all these "businesses" that buy at retail. Capitalism means we are laughing at all these suckers staring at cases of overpriced and overrated ammo.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 1:57 PM
By the way, i'm not an ammo flipper, so I'm not just someone getting defensive about being called a scumbag. I did buy 1000rds during the panic, but I'm not selling it, nor would I have sold it if a ban went through and prices went up higher. But not for ethical reasons - I only would've kept it because I'd want to have some on hand. If I had bought 20000 rds, however, you bet your *** I'd sell most of it as soon as I felt that the market peaked. I didn't stockpile, only because I felt like it would be a dumb investment, and it turns out I was right, but I don't fault the others who took a risk on it, this is America. Land of opportunity.

erngum
03-10-2015, 2:00 PM
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html

They will try again.

sandbasser
03-10-2015, 2:00 PM
Don't count the chickens before they hatch... The gun (and ammo) grabbers won't give up that easy.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 2:00 PM
A flipper's stock only only have gotten tanked if they bought at a high price and were trying to unload at an even higher price.

Those who bought M855 for less than $.30/round (I bought mine last year at $.27/round when 55gr was temporarily dried up), and who didn't get a chance to flip it still bought the ammo at a good price, so no harm there if they decide to sell to break even or just keep it.

You don't meet the definition of a flipper. The flippers weren't hoarding or stockpiling 855 till AFTER the threats of a ban.

Some of those flippers made a few hundred bucks if they are lucky. But they likely turned any profits back into buying and ultimately, most are now sitting on ammo they will have to sell at a loss this year or next.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 2:04 PM
Some of those flippers made a few hundred bucks if they are lucky. But they likely turned any profits back into buying and ultimately, most are now sitting on ammo they will have to sell at a loss this year or next.

You're probably absolutely correct. They're bad investors, but not scumbags, that's all I'm saying.

God Bless America
03-10-2015, 2:04 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher?

Because rent-seeking behavior has a net social cost. Ammo flippers take advantage of those of us with jobs, by waiting for Walmart to open and cleaning them out, then adding on cost.

It is an example of market failure.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 2:06 PM
You're probably absolutely correct. They're bad investors, but not scumbags, that's all I'm saying.

I am pretty sure you are talking generally... I didn't call anyone a scumbag.

BZB
03-10-2015, 2:07 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher? If you have an opportunity to make money off of somebody less prepared or knowledgable, and they are fine with paying, who cares??

It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...

I agree with ya, business is business, a free market is to allow one to make money, if the buyer is willing to pay the price, who cares. For me, I stock up during non panic times, I'm GTG.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 2:09 PM
I am pretty sure you are talking generally... I didn't call anyone a scumbag.

Sorry, yes you're correct, I lost track of who was calling who scumbags :D

adam6955
03-10-2015, 2:12 PM
When you are stuck after a disaster and someone walks past you to sell his water to the guy next to you because he has 100 silver coins to give him, I'll ask you the same question.
Taking advantage of another's misfortune is what is going on here.


Well that is a moot point because I have plenty of water and supplies. "Misfortune" is misused in this context. Everyone has had the same opportunity to buy the same products. It is not "misfortune" that they did not buy it when given the chance, and someone else did. Someone else who will sell it back to them at higher cost. Call it the cost of being unprepared.

What drives most people nuts is that this site does not allow for people to tell these scum bags off or to warn others.
It allows for snakes in the grass. Be careful out there.

Agreed. There is a line between thread crapping and showing others that they can get it cheaper elsewhere. The problem is it takes a LOT more moderation to regulate this, so a blanket ban on any negative comments is far easier.

Just wait, in 10 years, you'll be posting too "I remember being able to buy xm855 for .40 per round."

I'm new too but have learned when I good deal comes along you pounce on it because chances are it will be sold out later.

I hear ya. Wasn't really complaining, just saying that someone buying a parts kit for $99 10+ years ago and selling for 10x that now is not considered a flipper...although technically they are making substantial profits, and many are sitting on a large number of kits.

Ammo flippers are the same as any other type of investor. Sometimes the risk pays off, sometimes it doesn't, and those who chose not to invest get mad when they see those who did making money. And those who lose money get mad when the risk didn't pay off. That's the way free-market and capitalism work. Either learn to deal with it, or move to a communist country where everything has price-controls.


Nailed it!!


You guys have been living in California for too long because all that communism disguised as harmless socialism taught in our schools has managed, despite your best efforts, to infect your brains.

It is a free market economy. That is one of the many things that makes our country great.

Things are worth what people will pay for them. Good old supply and demand. As supply decreases, and demand increases, prices rise. And so long as people are willing to pay those prices, all is working as it should. If they had not been willing to pay those prices, the market would have corrected it self sooner and the prices would have immediately fallen.

That doesn't make the seller a scumbag. That makes them both smart, and fortunate to be in the position to make a profit beyond the piddly 20-30% he normally gets. After all most industries afford upwards of a 50% markup even in hard times.

By your logic you would be a scumbag for selling your house for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for selling a stock or a bond for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for accepting the interesting on a savings account or IRA. If you paid attention in school you would know Carl Marx took the same line of though you're taking.

I'm not trying to insult you...just trying to point out the flaw in your logic. There is nothing wrong with making a profit on an investment.

And just like with stocks and bonds, and even homes, sometimes your investment pays off and some times it doesn't. That's life.

Unfortunately as logically as you explain this some will just not get it. I think we have an Idiocracy situation here.

No merit what-so-ever, and quite lame to boot.
Stretching as an ultimate art form. You sure your name isn't Stretch Armstrong?

Do you have a point, or are you just jerking off onto our screens?

BZB
03-10-2015, 2:14 PM
Because rent-seeking behavior has a net social cost. Ammo flippers take advantage of those of us with jobs, by waiting for Walmart to open and cleaning them out, then adding on cost.

It is an example of market failure.

Then call in sick for a day and wait in line at Walmart. I don't flip ammo, my $ comes from elsewhere, I just prepare myself before any panics.

So here's the

http://cheese-r-us.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Edam_Cheese.jpg

to go with the

http://www.kostdoktorn.se/wp-content/2011/07/vin1.jpg

Heretodaygonetomorrow
03-10-2015, 2:14 PM
The funny thing is 855 ammo sucks. It isn't accurate and most ranges in CA don't allow it during the summer (and shooting it on BLM during the summer is irresponsible).

The unfortunate thing is the panic buying of 855 has driven the prices up on all 223/556 ammo. Because of that, I am glad these flippers are likely going to be selling at a loss.

Buying at retail for resale is a business for suckers.



Don't lump all M855 ammo in the same trashcan.

For one, M855 is the US Military standard 5.56mm 62gr round manufactured mostly under the supervision of ATK at the US Government Owned Lake City Factory. Not the stuff manufactured by Foreign Manufacturers, and even other US Manufacturers that is not really M855, and is not manufactured to the same specs as M855.

ATK owns Federal, and sells M855 batch rejected and over-runs as M855 to the consumer market. Ever read the printed text that containers (ammo boxes and cardboard boxes) of M855 sold under the Federal (and other ATK owned labels) have on them? Many/most of them have a disclaimer that says the ammo does not meet Government Specs. In other words, it is not Genuine first quality M855, it's M855 rejects/fallouts. Only in the last year have batches of first quality real M855 become available to the commercial market from ATK has production is catching up with demand as Government Orders decrease.

It's no secret that 62gr bullets for the most part are more accurate out of 1 in 9 barrels (not the 1 in 7 barrels that current government M4s and M16s and AR15s have). The 1 in 7 barrels were adopted so M856 tracer ammo can be fired with reasonable accuracy from M4s and M16s. The replacement for M855 is M855A1 which has a bullet with a longer body, and no lead content. It's also more accurate from a 1 in 9 barrel than M855, but less accurate than M855 when fired from a 1 in 7 barrel.

My 1995 Bushmaster 16" and 20" 1 in 9" heavy barrel guns shoot real M855 very accurately. If your don't shoot real M855 ammo accurately, maybe it's your guns, or you.

JackRydden224
03-10-2015, 2:25 PM
And house flippers take advantage of families looking for shelter. And car sellers take advantage of people who need to get to work. And stock traders take advantage of people looking to build up a retirement portfolio. And farmers take advantage of people trying to put food on their table. Want me to keep going?

No, you can stop but you can start again when the government tries to ban any of the things you listed.

You nailed it in your other posts though, ammo flippers are also investor which means they carry risk. In their case the risk is not only losing money but they also risk pissing off the community. You can flip all you want but don't cry about it when people call you a-holes.

EDIT: To some it up, flippers can flip all they want but don't get butt hurt when other people @%@% you out. It's part of the business. You win some and you lose some.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 2:28 PM
Oh so it's all the bench rest and/or high power shooters buying up all this super accurate ammo? It must also be the ammo of choice for our Military's sniper squads too right?

jmf_tracy
03-10-2015, 2:40 PM
well I am shocked in a good way.
Thought for sure that they were gonna screw us on this so I picked up a couple of $600 cases. Oh well, I can live with that.

AKSOG
03-10-2015, 2:41 PM
The price will still be a elevator up, escalator down situation

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 2:44 PM
To some it up, flippers can flip all they want but don't get butt hurt when other people @%@% you out. It's part of the business. You win some and you lose some.

True true, and the 1st amendment gives us all the ability to call anyone whatever names we want. It's my opinion, though, that the people who do such namecalling against ammo flippers are no different than the people who were marching on wall street shouting "we are the 99%!" (who were also within their rights to do so, I just fail to understand why they choose to stay in America if they hate the way the economy is structured so much.)

bill_k_lopez
03-10-2015, 2:50 PM
The smart ones buy when the price are down. We collect ammo over a long period of time so we never have to panic buy. It's too late when the panic starts.

The really smart ones buy powder, primers and projectiles and reload their own.

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 2:52 PM
The real sad part about all of this is we have a victory and all we have managed to do is squabble (thanks to you pinko Commies that don't even realize you are socialists :D)

True true, and the 1st amendment gives us all the ability to call anyone whatever names we want.

No it does not.
It's a prohibition against government restriction, which itself has limits and boundaries.

kozumasbullitt
03-10-2015, 2:54 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher? If you have an opportunity to make money off of somebody less prepared or knowledgable, and they are fine with paying, who cares??

It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...

Your logic is flawed. Someone who flips is different from mark ups in retail stores. There is nothing wrong with investing in something but clearing shelves in the morning to try and double or triple your profit is borderline unethical. If a earthquake hit California hard and things went bad, it would be unethical to clear the canned goods and bottled water from store shelves and try and sell those items in the parking lot for 3 times the retail price.

hossb7
03-10-2015, 2:58 PM
M855 needs to group at 3" or better at 100 yards out a 14.5" SOPMOD barrel.

It's surplus/military. Not match.

JackRydden224
03-10-2015, 2:58 PM
True true, and the 1st amendment gives us all the ability to call anyone whatever names we want. It's my opinion, though, that the people who do such namecalling against ammo flippers are no different than the people who were marching on wall street shouting "we are the 99%!" (who were also within their rights to do so, I just fail to understand why they choose to stay in America if they hate the way the economy is structured so much.)

I don't think people hate the economic structure, I think it's more like we all just really like guns and ammo, A LOT. Today if we are talking about other items that people cared less about there wouldn't be the same reaction. I mean nobody would care if there is a ban on those tights cyclists wear right?

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 3:01 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher? If you have an opportunity to make money off of somebody less prepared or knowledgable, and they are fine with paying, who cares??

It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...

No, it isn't, and you know it isn't.

Wal mart is a legitimate player in the supply chain. Take .22 or ammo, as an example. Before the douchebag flippers, the shelves were full of sub .04/ round ammo, always.

Enter a shortage, which the flippers extend by purchasing far in excess of use, so,let so they can charge more because there's nothing on the shelves.

Your pathetic example rings hollow. If someone went to the Chevy dealers and bought all the Camaros, then started selling them at $150k because "there are no Camaros", that would be similar.

Flippers inject themselves into alreay complete supply chains and extend/create shortages which directly benefit them.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 3:03 PM
M855 needs to group at 3" or better at 100 yards out a 14.5" SOPMOD barrel.

It's surplus/military. Not match.

EXACTLY. I've never looked at it as more than plinking ammo if you can't find 55gr. At the insane prices they are/were going for in this mini panic you could get ACTUAL MATCH ammo.

I buy a 77gr (MK262 copy) at .60c a round (even today) and it shoots MOA out of my 16" Stainless BCM upper.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 3:03 PM
I mean nobody would care if there is a ban on those tights cyclists wear right?

I've been lobbying for that law for a long time now :p

On an unrelated note, WTT 10,000 pairs of bike shorts. Looking for M855.

Sliik
03-10-2015, 3:04 PM
LOL

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 3:05 PM
No, it isn't, and you know it isn't.

Wal mart is a legitimate player in the supply chain. Take .22 or ammo, as an example. Before the douchebag flippers, the shelves were full of sub .04/ round ammo, always.

Enter a shortage, which the flippers extend by purchasing far in excess of use, so,let so they can charge more because there's nothing on the shelves.

Your pathetic example rings hollow. If someone went to the Chevy dealers and bought all the Camaros, then started selling them at $150k because "there are no Camaros", that would be similar.

Flippers inject themselves into alreay complete supply chains and extend/create shortages which directly benefit them.

This.

Sliik
03-10-2015, 3:06 PM
LOL

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 3:09 PM
LOL

I know where several people aren't laughing (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=169).

Jeep67cj5
03-10-2015, 3:13 PM
Good news

Mayor McRifle
03-10-2015, 3:24 PM
cause flippers are opportunists. they will buy ,say 22lr for $15 a brick and buy 3-5 cases, then try to *** pound the public at $75-$100 a brick on craigslist or the local want ads....

i had a buddy sometime back that bought is son a nice ruger 10/22 cheap, then he put an ad on craigslist explaining he needed to find a brick of 22 for his 10yr old son. he got 27 emails in 24 hours from flippers wanting stupid prices. one guy wanted $250 bucks for a brick of CCI mini mags.....WTF........he paid $100 FOR THE GUN!

Gun owners who prey on fellow gun owners are vermin.

radioburning
03-10-2015, 3:28 PM
People are talking like people are only mad at flippers because they buy ammo at a low price and sell at a higher price. That's not exactly correct. People are mad at flippers because they go around and snatch up all the ammo, leaving none for anybody else.

In a perfect world, every gun owner would have 10,000 rounds for each gun they own. But that's not the way it always works. What about noobs who just got their first AR this year?

Sure, "it's capitalism", but don't expect people to not feel that you're making a crappy situation way worse, and think you're kind of slimy for it.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 3:30 PM
Sure, "it's capitalism", but don't expect people to not feel that you're making a crappy situation way worse, and think you're kind of slimy for it.

Yep. And we finally get to laugh at them!

CK_32
03-10-2015, 3:32 PM
Now our certified operators can keep operating.


Phew. Was scared for a second.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 3:34 PM
People are talking like people are only mad at flippers because they buy ammo at a low price and sell at a higher price. That's not exactly correct. People are mad at flippers because they go around and snatch up all the ammo, leaving none for anybody else.

At what point was it unavailable for other people to purchase?

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the purchases were made by people who were legitimately concerned they wouldn't be able to buy it again, I don't think flippers were entirely to blame here, there would've been a shortage anyway (albeit, maybe not as bad of a shortage, but still)

pluke the 2
03-10-2015, 3:39 PM
I was dumb enough a time ago to buy into one panic. Never again, lol.

hossb7
03-10-2015, 3:43 PM
EXACTLY. I've never looked at it as more than plinking ammo if you can't find 55gr. At the insane prices they are/were going for in this mini panic you could get ACTUAL MATCH ammo.

I buy a 77gr (MK262 copy) at .60c a round (even today) and it shoots MOA out of my 16" Stainless BCM upper.

As issued, an M4 carbine is expected to deliver a sub three inch group at 100 yardswith issued ammunition(62-grain Green Tip).
It was a light, reliable and, at sub three minutes at 100 yards, delivered a reasonable degree of accuracy. Was it possible to
shoot these weapon systems and get sub one inch groups at 100 yards? Absolutely. But it is a combination of skill, ammunition
and platform that delivers that capability.

-J.D. Potynsky
http://soldiersystems.net/2015/03/10/bcm-gunfighter-history-pt-2-jd-potynsky/

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 3:52 PM
At what point was it unavailable for other people to purchase?

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the purchases were made by people who were legitimately concerned they wouldn't be able to buy it again, I don't think flippers were entirely to blame here, there would've been a shortage anyway (albeit, maybe not as bad of a shortage, but still)

When the same five guys haunt wal mart, etc and buy every box that is put out, that's the point where I can't buy it there. I work, so I can't suspend my life to ensure that I get first crack at ammo at wal mart.

Guys who are in this cycle aren't concerned about anything other than perpetuating the "shortage" so they can turn a buck justified by the shortage they create/extend.

cajay
03-10-2015, 4:02 PM
I Learned my lesson by paying to much for an AR-15 and ammo last year. Probably lost a few hundred dollars.

I played this one in the middle and bought 1000 rds because I didin't have any.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 4:04 PM
When the same five guys haunt wal mart, etc and buy every box that is put out, that's the point where I can't buy it there. I work, so I can't suspend my life to ensure that I get first crack at ammo at wal mart.

You could always buy it somewhere besides walmart, no? Midway had this stuff in stock ready-to-ship the entire duration of the panic, for between $.40/rd (at the beginning) to $.55/rd (towards the end).

glock7
03-10-2015, 4:10 PM
I don't sell ammo for number of reasons, most of which are beyond my control, but I have to comment on this as it is a pet peeve of mine.

You guys have been living in California for too long because all that communism disguised as harmless socialism taught in our schools has managed, despite your best efforts, to infect your brains.

It is a free market economy. That is one of the many things that makes our country great.

Things are worth what people will pay for them. Good old supply and demand. As supply decreases, and demand increases, prices rise. And so long as people are willing to pay those prices, all is working as it should. If they had not been willing to pay those prices, the market would have corrected it self sooner and the prices would have immediately fallen.

That doesn't make the seller a scumbag. That makes them both smart, and fortunate to be in the position to make a profit beyond the piddly 20-30% he normally gets. After all most industries afford upwards of a 50% markup even in hard times.

By your logic you would be a scumbag for selling your house for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for selling a stock or a bond for more than you paid for it. You would be a scumbag for accepting the interesting on a savings account or IRA. If you paid attention in school you would know Carl Marx took the same line of though you're taking.

I'm not trying to insult you...just trying to point out the flaw in your logic. There is nothing wrong with making a profit on an investment.

And just like with stocks and bonds, and even homes, sometimes your investment pays off and some times it doesn't. That's life.

This is true. This always happens during a panic. Some folks don't like the higher prices. And they especially hate capitalism. So, yeah they've been living in CA for Waaaay too long and so have i......less than nine years to go, then it's off to the free states.

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 4:11 PM
You could always buy it somewhere besides walmart, no? Midway had this stuff in stock ready-to-ship the entire duration of the panic, for between $.40/rd (at the beginning) to $.55/rd (towards the end).

I don't need any, and wasn't looking for any. I never buy or sell during these panics, at least not at crazy prices.

I'm commenting on douchebaggery, and answered a question. You asked how or when it wasn't available. I provided an honest answer.

Your response to the answer is to argue nobody held a gun to my head.

That doesn't erase my answer. Does it?

sgt1372
03-10-2015, 4:12 PM
Cool!!

Bought 600 rounds @ 40 cents/round just b4 prices spiked to 60+ cents/round. Hopefully, I can buy 600 rounds more at less to average down. :)

I'll be interesting to see how fast prices drop and supplies increase after this news filters down. Just hope it's NOT like gas prices which seem to have a life of their own; in which case, there's no telling whether prices will go up or down regardless of supply and demand. :facepalm:

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 4:18 PM
This is true. This always happens during a panic. Some folks don't like the higher prices. And they especially hate capitalism. So, yeah they've been living in CA for Waaaay too long and so have i......less than nine years to go, then it's off to the free states.

Nope. I'm a staunch anti communist and probably more conservative than you are.

Im not directly affected by this, but it is douchebaggery. I don't Hate capitalism, that's a facile, idiotic claim.

Injecting oneself into a perfectly formed complete supply chain, and manipulating supply to artificially support higher prices isn't capitalism.

There's also nothing at all communist or liberal about criticizing opportunistic screwing of others while hiding behind lame claims of "capitalism".

This always devolves into butt hurt opportunist swine bleating about capitalism. If I ran around buying up store loads of water and batteries right before a hurricane, then had a "sale" and charged $10 per bottle or D cell, and tried to hide behind capitalism, I'd be a douchebag opportunist.

Before you claim it's life and death, it isn't. You don't need batteries or bottled water to survive, you can build water and sit in the dark, neither will kill you.

This is the same. Sticking it to someone and "giving it away" or "selling at a loss" are not the only options on a continuum.

elSquid
03-10-2015, 4:24 PM
Low production levels relative to absolute population numbers coupled with lean manufacturing/inventory means that ammunition supply is quite sensitive to short term panic.

"Flippers" do provide a service: they are basically an inventory buffer when demand overwhelms supply. Flippers allow ammo to be purchased at the new market prices; the alternative is no ammo available for purchase at all.

-- Michael

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 4:28 PM
Citadelgrad: For being such a staunch supporter of capitalism, you don't seem to have a firm grasp on how it works. You blame the sellers when you should blame the people who BUY the stuff at inflated prices, since they are the ones who are actually driving up the prices. Economics 101 - price is always dictated by the buyer, not the seller.

scottz
03-10-2015, 4:33 PM
If you want to sell ammo way don't you get a business license and do it right.

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 4:33 PM
Then blame the people who BUY the stuff at inflated prices, since they are the ones who are actually driving up the prices. Economics 101 - price is always dictated by the buyer, not the seller.

I Aced Econ, thanks. Buyers do not set prices unilaterally. If a buyer wants to pay less than the seller demands, there is no sale. Who set the price in that instance? Take knee jerk elsewhere.

I blame the douchebag flippers. Your simplistic statements aside, it is the flippers who are affecting supply and using it to justify high prices
.
Again, since you ignored it, what say I have a parking lot sale for water, batteries and plywood outside the last Home Depot I cleaned out the day before a hurricane?

Why blame me, the morons who are paying $10 for a bottle of water are setting the price, right?

Tell me more about Econ 101.

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 4:34 PM
Citadelgrad: For being such a staunch supporter of capitalism, you don't seem to have a firm grasp on how it works. You blame the sellers when you should blame the people who BUY the stuff at inflated prices, since they are the ones who are actually driving up the prices. Economics 101 - price is always dictated by the buyer, not the seller.

No, it isn't. See above.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 4:37 PM
I Aced Econ, thanks. Buyers do not set prices unilaterally. If a buyer wants to pay less than the seller demands, there is no sale. Who set the price in that instance?

The buyers STILL set the price in that instance. Want to know how? Because when the seller is standing there like an idiot not selling any of his $10 water bottles, he is forced to lower his prices until he starts getting buyers - and if he doesn't someone else will come along and sell the same thing for less, and take away all his potential buyers. So yes, buyers DO set prices unilaterally.

thomashoward
03-10-2015, 4:41 PM
Calguns is filled with feint hearted conservatives that hate capitalism when it does not go their way.

^^ too true

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 4:43 PM
Claims to be conservative and aced econ yet disparages and fails to understand supply and demand.

Dubious statement is dubious.

cockedandglocked
03-10-2015, 4:48 PM
Claims to be conservative and aced econ yet disparages and fails to understand supply and demand.

Dubious statement is dubious.

I think he thinks that since he can't walk into a gas station and offer to pay $1/gallon less for his gas, that supply and demand is just a mirage. Very short-sided thinking.

hossb7
03-10-2015, 4:49 PM
:rofl2: people are so mad in this thread.

jeffyhog
03-10-2015, 4:50 PM
It seems that we had these exact types of threads just a couple years ago. We're having this same conversation now, and I'm sure we'll be having them again when the next panic happens. People need to learn that our rights are going to be under attack for the foreseeable future, and market conditions are going to fluctuate based on the whims of polititians, or due to whackos doing stupid things.

Everybody crying about ammo flippers and low ammo supplies needs to learn their lesson and vow to never be caught in this situation again. We are not out of the woods yet, in fact we never will be, but ammo will come back into stock and prices will come down. Learn the lesson and be stocked up next time. It cracks me up how so many threads I read about guys holding out for prices on 5 56 to drop another 3 cents a rounds before making their purchase, then overnight prices doubled and people were scrambling to buy it then.

Ammo is a consumable commodity and prices change with market conditions, just like oil, gold, corn. Long term, prices are going up. Buy when the prices are reasonable, if it goes down from there buy more.

Son of BAR7
03-10-2015, 4:52 PM
dammit! now I feel stupid for panic buying at $0.40/rd
stupid...stupid...stupid....

CALREB
03-10-2015, 4:54 PM
Some time back , I got up early to go to Walmart to get a battery for the wife's car. Walked up to check when they opened, and all these older(Im old)so older than me guys were standing there REALLY giving me the evil eye.
I had a Springfield Armory hat on so they thought I was there to get the 22 ammo that was being put out that morning apparently.
A few minutes before the store opened I took a cart and got my battery out of my car. One of them asked me OH you here for a battery(DUH) Yep !
Suddenly everyone was talking and I was ok cause I wasnt there to get ammo. Guess thats how they bolster their retirement. Using is one thing but
huddling up to buy out the store is pretty sad.
And by the way WHAT 223/5.56 ammo WON'T penetrate body armor, as most Police dont go around wearing hard armor. Some Govt we have, probably spent 10 million studying the problem.MY .02

cajay
03-10-2015, 4:56 PM
Somebody forgot to tell BULKAMMO.COM the good news. I think a boycott is in ordre here. (almost $700 for 1000 rds.)

http://www.bulkammo.com/bulk-223-ammo-556x45mm62fmjm855pmc-1000

hossb7
03-10-2015, 4:56 PM
While everyone was panic buying M855 I made a sweet purchase of M193 for a cool $0.30/round.

elSquid
03-10-2015, 5:00 PM
Everybody crying about ammo flippers and low ammo supplies needs to learn their lesson and vow to never be caught in this situation again. We are not out of the woods yet, in fact we never will be, but ammo will come back into stock and prices will come down. Learn the lesson and be stocked up next time. It cracks me up how so many threads I read about guys holding out for prices on 5 56 to drop another 3 cents a rounds before making their purchase, then overnight prices doubled and people were scrambling to buy it then.

Ammo is a consumable commodity and prices change with market conditions, just like oil, gold, corn. Long term, prices are going up. Buy when the prices are reasonable, if it goes down from there buy more.

Pretty much. "Buy cheap, stack deep."

Having a good stock of ammo not only helps to ensure that a person can continue shooting uninterrupted during the next panic, it also lessens demand during said panic as there is one less person buying.

As well, ammo ain't getting any cheaper.

I wish that I had bought more South African 7.62N when it was really cheap years ago[1]... lesson learned. ;)

-- Michael

[1] It was what... 10-15c/rnd? Sigh.

HOGDOG1955
03-10-2015, 5:10 PM
wow mag i would say selling ammo cheaper than almost every single retail oufit except walmart isnt what i would call gouging. especially since you just go one time and meet and bingo you have your ammo. and i have actually sold some 22 lately and at 7 cents per round i think that is the price of the ammo and the one time cost of the gas to go buy it. and this is bad??? and if you havent spent some time at walmart ammo counters early morning then you have missed meeting alot of folks and most of em good folks. for over 2 years i have just passed AMMO ON AT THE EXACT PRICE IT COST ME BUT WAS URGED BY THOSE BUYING IT TO AT LEAST CHARGE FOR MY GAS. anyway to each their own.

glock_this
03-10-2015, 5:12 PM
My motto is "ABB" = Always Be Buying.

I buy year around. Times like these only impact me as I buy less as there is less to buy and I don't over pay - I don't need to. But when everyone breathes a sigh of relief and chills, I keep on buying. When stock comes back, I keep on buying. I'll buy night, day, holiday, weekend, while at work, while at your house, while at a funeral. ABB.

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 5:14 PM
The buyers STILL set the price in that instance. Want to know how? Because when the seller is standing there like an idiot not selling any of his $10 water bottles, he is forced to lower his prices until he starts getting buyers - and if he doesn't someone else will come along and sell the same thing for less, and take away all his potential buyers. So yes, buyers DO set prices unilaterally.

No, they don't. The body of sellers influences price, but an individual seller foes not.

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 5:17 PM
Claims to be conservative and aced econ yet disparages and fails to understand supply and demand.

Dubious statement is dubious.


Blow hard is blow hard.


Explain what I "don't understand", Milton Friedman.

Explain how middlemen that inject themselves into a fully formed and functional supply chain is "supply and demand".

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 5:18 PM
I think he thinks that since he can't walk into a gas station and offer to pay $1/gallon less for his gas, that supply and demand is just a mirage. Very short-sided thinking.

Don't profess to tell others what I think, Ive got my position down pat, thanks

dzen
03-10-2015, 5:18 PM
All this hate of flippers!! Why doesn't everyone hate on every other business that buys a product for a lower price, often in bulk, and then sells it higher? If you have an opportunity to make money off of somebody less prepared or knowledgable, and they are fine with paying, who cares??

It is pretty hypocritical to hate those who flip ammo online, but not hold equal contempt for Walmart, your LGS, or the grocery store...

Do you have a business license and the proper FFL to sell Ammo? If not, don't compare yourself to a business.

If you are not a business, then you are just some lowlife trying to take advantage of fellow firearms enthusists.

If you are a business then you are in the wrong forum for selling ammo.

Which is it?

2761377
03-10-2015, 5:18 PM
HaHa- you happy dancers are cracking me up.

now that 2a supporters have outlined their objections, our Dear Leader's minions know what obstacles to avoid.

a mere tactical shortening of the lines. they'll be back.

jeffyhog
03-10-2015, 5:18 PM
I got into the game too late to remember 10-15 cent 7.62x51. I think they were about $35 or $40 when I first bought my SA battle packs of 140 rounds. I can remember contemplating the metal cases of the ammo- I think they were about $400 for 1200+ rounds, but I always passed. I got into shooting in the late 90's and I remember paying crazy prices for 10+ mags before they were banned in CA, but I figured I better get them if I wanted them. I even bought mags for guns I wanted down the road.
I paid $215 for my first case of 5.56 Winchester white box, but I've never seen it that cheap since and I don't expect I ever will again.

I think any brass 5.56 under .30 per round these days is a buy.

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 5:19 PM
My motto is "ABB" = Always Be Buying.

I buy year around. Times like these only impact me as I buy less as there is less to buy and I don't over pay - I don't need to. But when everyone breathes a sigh of relief and chills, I keep on buying. When stock comes back, I keep on buying. I'll buy night, day, holiday, weekend, while at work, while at your house, while at a funeral. ABB.

Dollar cost averaging.

Oh, wait I don't understand Econ. :rolleyes:

Danodog
03-10-2015, 5:21 PM
I usually buy two to four boxes of ammunition per month, so I have a couple of cases just buying here and there. I don't own single round of M855. That being said, I don't feel a need to stockpile in large purchases. I have about 3k rounds of .223 and I am still buying a couple boxes per month. Slow and steady will add up faster than you can imagine.

Citadelgrad87
03-10-2015, 5:24 PM
For the butt hurt flippers cowering behind "capitalism, you must HATE capitalism", a review of my position

I dont call for ANY regulation or other government intrusion into ammo sales. I am not calling for a boycott.

I am saying you can be a douchebag AND be doing something that is legal and I want to stay legal.

Standing in line and purchasing all of something, anything, when your purchase removes the item from availability, then pointing to a "shortage" to justify increased prices, is not "capitalism". It's manipulation of supply, just like bunker hunts move on silver. Cornering the market affects supply. Supply affects prices.

glock_this
03-10-2015, 5:25 PM
I usually buy two to four boxes of ammunition per month, so I have a couple of cases just buying here and there. I don't own single round of M855. That being said, I don't feel a need to stockpile in large purchases. I have about 3k rounds of .223 and I am still buying a couple boxes per month. Slow and steady will add up faster than you can imagine.

Just waiting now for the :TFH: guys to come out and say to us, "OMG shsssssh be quiet don't give people ideas" or "oh man, shhsssssh you're going to ruin it for everyone" or maybe even "shsssh don't suggest this method online and tell the 'others' about it" or how about "oh good job man, now everyone knows the secret to ammo buying" :)

sgt1372
03-10-2015, 5:28 PM
dammit! now I feel stupid for panic buying at $0.40/rd stupid...stupid...stupid....

Unless you bought cases and cases of it, I don't think you'll get hurt at .40/round.

I doubt that prices will drop back to 25-30 cents/round anytime soon, if ever again. More likely prices will drop back to 35-40 cents/round after the dealers who are trying to sell their post-panic stock for 50-70 cents/round realize that nobody's going to buy the stuff at those prices (now that the "panic" is over) and try to recoup their cost by selling that stuff off by gradually reducing their asking price in increments from 45, 40 and 35 cents/round until price meets demand.

According to Ammoseek, prices currently range from 45 to over 80 cents/round. My guess is that prices will drop to around 35 cents/round but no telling how long that will take. If you need more, just buy in increments BUT don't buy huge quantities at any price until it's clear that prices have stabilized. So that, if prices actually drop to 30 cents or less/round, you'll be in a position to average down.

elSquid
03-10-2015, 5:33 PM
I got into the game too late to remember 10-15 cent 7.62x51. I think they were about $35 or $40 when I first bought my SA battle packs of 140 rounds. I can remember contemplating the metal cases of the ammo- I think they were about $400 for 1200+ rounds, but I always passed.

I waltzed into Traders in Oakland one day in the early 2000s, and they had crates of the SA stuff stacked up. I swear a case of 1260 was under $200...

...I only bought one. I didn't have a 308 semi at the time so I bought it as cheap blasting ammo for a bolt-action scout rifle. I figured that ~1300 rounds was enough "for now".

:eek:

-- Michael

sl0re10
03-10-2015, 5:34 PM
Because they buy in bulk to sell for less than the small timers did!

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

glock_this
03-10-2015, 5:34 PM
I like to use Wolf Gold as a good benchmark for .223. Roughly $290 per 1000 delivered. So, for something in say M193 or this M855 or SS109, etc. I think a good solid average price is say .35-.38 cent per round. When you can score 5.56/.223 in sub .40, you have done pretty well. And that does not really change year to year as even before the 2-3 year panic now, .35 was a solid good price.

jeffyhog
03-10-2015, 5:40 PM
We dodged the bullet this time, but Zero and his goons will be back. I think a lot of people panicked because the news made reports that AR 15 ammo was being banned, and they didn't specify m855 or steel core, so a lot if average people ran out to buy what they could.

Many people on the forums were saying that if the ATF got away with banning M855, then they could eventually ban all 5.56 or all rifle rounds as they can penetrate police officers vests.

I think that's a bit of a stretch, but what does concern me is the prospect of them banning military surplus ammo in general. This "sporting purposes" clause really scares me. I think they will take an incremental step in banning the sale and importation of any military spec ammo. I think they will make the case that this is military grade ammo and civilians have no need for it. They will say that people still have access to commercial grade ammo, so it's not an infringement, although shooting will become much more expensive. Imagine if the only 5.56 and 7.62x39 avalable was commercial grade stuff at .75 cents per round.

This is where I'm afraid they'll go next.

Nacho_Eater
03-10-2015, 5:56 PM
There is a certain sense of camaradrie and fair play among most shooters and hunters, so as a matter of course they take satisfaction when the greedy get their just desserts for taking advantage of others in a crisis. Other's mileage may vary of course.

This. X 1000

It's not about being closet Commies or anti-Capitalism. It's about being fair and not taking advantage of a bad situation.

Now how cheap,will green tips go? 30 cents per round? 25 cents? :cool:

2761377
03-10-2015, 6:00 PM
one of the main points raised by M855 defenders is that any 5.56 will penetrate LE body armor.

So, expect ATF to get an AR pistol and try it. if they succeed, they'll say they have proof that ALL 5.56 is armor piercing and ban it all.

HOGDOG1955
03-10-2015, 6:03 PM
jeff that is exactly why i scooped up 1500 rounds of tulammo 762 by 39 and i dont own an ak yet. i think it may be prudent to have an ak and ammo to feed it if called upon. and i daing sure dont want to buy the rifle and then next month the ammo goes to 10 bucks a box or 20. $5.47 plus tax was much better so i grabbed some and will probably grab a few thousand more rounds.

ParanoidCivilian
03-10-2015, 6:12 PM
its accurate Tonyxcom, depending on your rifle and your rifling twist rate. i have a 1:7 and it shoots 62gr greens like a laser beam.....

That's an exaggeration.

tophatjones
03-10-2015, 6:32 PM
Just wanted to point out that although m855 flippers may have been practicing capitalism, they were definitely not practicing free market capitalism. Dirty govt policy or even the fear of a future policy created artificially inflated demand against a supply chain unprepared to handle the increased demand.

Cypriss32
03-10-2015, 6:42 PM
Its not over, don't be foolish. They are going to try it again, this time it might be at opportune time with lots of support and no page to send comments too.

major burnout
03-10-2015, 6:43 PM
Just wanted to point out that although m855 flippers may have been practicing capitalism, they were definitely not practicing free market capitalism. Dirty govt policy or even the fear of a future policy created artificially inflated demand against a supply chain unprepared to handle the increased demand.

Federal ammo got paid!!! Im sure they were happy with ban threat.

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 7:06 PM
Blow hard is blow hard.


Explain what I "don't understand", Milton Friedman.

Explain how middlemen that inject themselves into a fully formed and functional supply chain is "supply and demand".

Because supply and demand isn't a 2 dimensional concept as you seem to think (or believe it should be) is.

Under the principles of a free market if "flippers" are seen as 1) immoral, overpriced, or all of the above then the market itself will take care of them by not buying from them. Easy as that.
But guess what the reality is? Nobody gives a F about the former, only the latter.

You aren't alone in your sentiments (as evidenced by all your comrades in this thread) but how come it hasn't stopped private individuals from speculating on the firearms market?

You would have to be pretty naive to think that private speculators that raid walmart have a substantial effect on the market. Guess what? Anybody who purchases has an effect on the market. Whether you intend to consume, hord, or re-sell, it does not matter. Under panic circumstances the supply becomes strained period.

I could go on and on. But u paid good cash for my education, and you aren't paying me so... ( I know I know, I am horrible for hoarding my information )

, Ive got my position down pat, thanks

I believe without a doubt that you believe you do.

The more extreme elements of this club believe the same things you do.
You should look them up
www.dscc.org/join

jeffyhog
03-10-2015, 7:11 PM
I've heard different stories about the M855A1 and its implementation in the military. Some active duty guys say its already in use, while others say they are still using the M855. If the military is definitely switching over to the A1 round, then the M855 is probably on its way out. Once the military moves away from M855, I would think there will be no reason for them to continue making XM855 for civilians. PMC and other NATO suppliers may continue, but I don't see why Federal would continue at Lake City. What do you guys think about that?

CockedAndLocked
03-10-2015, 7:15 PM
one of the main points raised by M855 defenders is that any 5.56 will penetrate LE body armor.

So, expect ATF to get an AR pistol and try it. if they succeed, they'll say they have proof that ALL 5.56 is armor piercing and ban it all.


nahhh they'll ban the gun in that case, there's no possible way they could ban 5.56. Its all just politcal fodder

Guns and guitars
03-10-2015, 7:17 PM
The smart ones buy when the price are down. We collect ammo over a long period of time so we never have to panic buy. It's too late when the panic starts.

This.

golfish
03-10-2015, 7:58 PM
My motto is "ABB" = Always Be Buying.

I buy year around. Times like these only impact me as I buy less as there is less to buy and I don't over pay - I don't need to. But when everyone breathes a sigh of relief and chills, I keep on buying. When stock comes back, I keep on buying. I'll buy night, day, holiday, weekend, while at work, while at your house, while at a funeral. ABB.

I can't argue with this. If I'm at Bass Pro Shops, Turners or Walmart and don't see what I want I'll buy a what ever is on sale or a bulk box of 12ga, maybe just a box of clay birds. I don't need em but what the hec, They will last a life time and its not going to get any cheaper.

My son\daughters can use em 20 years from now.

Thunder Beast
03-10-2015, 8:10 PM
Sign the petition to get the ban on 7n6 lifted. Spread the word!

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/reverse-batfe-ban-import-7n6-ammunition/HCWTmm0B

varanidguy
03-10-2015, 8:30 PM
Just wait for the next panic boys and girls.

Those who do not learn from the past. . .

Start reloading. :D

Edit: Those who DO learn from the past start reloading. lol

barrage
03-10-2015, 8:49 PM
Start reloading. :D

Edit: Those who DO learn from the past start reloading. lol

What happens when they attack our powder? Which I find as nothing less than a miracle they haven't gone after yet considering its potential of massive destruction if used in a bomb.

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 9:00 PM
What happens when they attack our powder? Which I find as nothing less than a miracle they haven't gone after yet considering its potential of massive destruction if used in a bomb.

Powder tax..
Why does that sound familiar. . .

FromTheGrave
03-10-2015, 9:17 PM
I sense a green tip false flag coming in our near future.

The Obummer can say "I told you so. It's 'common sense'."

ThighSlapper
03-10-2015, 9:20 PM
Calguns is filled with feint hearted conservatives that hate capitalism when it does not go their way.

:iagree:

Victor Cachat
03-10-2015, 9:25 PM
Market forces at work.
When you buy with the expectation of increasing prices, you have to factor in the risk of prices NOT rising.

Still, it's definitely triggering a bit of schadenfreude.

Sunday
03-10-2015, 9:35 PM
Just wait for the next panic boys and girls.

Those who do not learn from the past. . . Hillary 2016 YEP the voters are that stupid.

chead
03-10-2015, 9:39 PM
Calguns is filled with feint hearted conservatives that hate capitalism when it does not go their way.

Stick with the Calguns communists, we hate it all the time. And by "we" I mean me, because I think I'm the only one.

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 9:57 PM
Stick with the Calguns communists, we hate it all the time. And by "we" I mean me, because I think I'm the only one.

Ha ha.

I actually dislike all all political and social philosophies.

It is just a riot to hang out here and listen to all the right wing rhetoric and Republican party propaganda that gets spewed out as gospel only to run into crap like this ALL THE TIME.

And this is why I do not like the bi-partisan tribalism. Everybody involved in a politically polarizing activity (like firearm rights) wants to claim they are the most pro (insert party, ideology, doctrine, philosophy whatever here). But the moment they cant completely coincide their true personal beliefs with the system they advocate all of a sudden it becomes a big emotional pissing match to try to rationalize the the contradiction they are faced with.

l8apex
03-10-2015, 10:13 PM
Still can't believe people were willing to pay the same amount as MK262 rounds. Doesn't anyone do research sheesh.

starsnuffer
03-10-2015, 10:13 PM
If your're partisan you're not a patriot. No one who claims any love for this country could stand to support either party.

-W

tecstar1
03-10-2015, 10:46 PM
Lets get back to putting the blame where it lies, squarely with the ATF. Nuff said.

Rickrock1
03-10-2015, 10:51 PM
I thought dam you are willing to trade your 1000 of green tip for a G17, AR 10 + cash etc. hahahaha

Thanks to everyone that called and emailed to stop this for now, I can guarantee the a leftist will be back with a more eloborate scheme to try an ban even more than just the GT.

It's critical that everyone pay close attention to the Leftist regime, sounds the bells and be an activist for our rights.

Prepare for the worse and always be ready to fight for your rights.

SB1964
03-10-2015, 10:55 PM
For those that haven't thought about it...And you're arguing now. Wait until the next election cycle, you'll really be upset then, I promise. Get outside & go fishing or shooting, while you're still young, quit talking about it.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 10:56 PM
Prepare for the worse and always be ready to fight for your rights.

And don't forget to save some time to capitalize on the heels of the next proposed ban.

The Waco Kid
03-10-2015, 11:39 PM
CCW (Peruta), no major fallout from 2014, and now this? Waiting for the other shoe.

MrPlink
03-10-2015, 11:48 PM
Lets get back to putting the blame where it lies, squarely with the ATF. Nuff said.

Here here.
Bureaucratic organizations that operate with near complete impunity are crap.

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 11:54 PM
Here here.
Bureaucratic organizations that operate with near complete impunity are crap.

But if they bought all the 855 ammo, banned it, and sold it for double they would just be capitalists.

Rhyyke
03-11-2015, 12:10 AM
I hope this means ZQ1 will finally be in stock at Walmart!

Hec912
03-11-2015, 12:18 AM
So was the petition pointless?


Hmm, petition needs 14k votes... "Let's tell these gun nuts were cool keep your ammo" here comes March 16 .."sorry not enough votes u lose"

Heretodaygonetomorrow
03-11-2015, 12:18 AM
I've heard different stories about the M855A1 and its implementation in the military. Some active duty guys say its already in use, while others say they are still using the M855. If the military is definitely switching over to the A1 round, then the M855 is probably on its way out. Once the military moves away from M855, I would think there will be no reason for them to continue making XM855 for civilians. PMC and other NATO suppliers may continue, but I don't see why Federal would continue at Lake City. What do you guys think about that?



The guys on deployment overseas are getting all the available M855A1. Here in the States, the Services are burning up the existing stocks of M855 in training. ATK/Federal is still making M193 (it sells for as much or more as M855), and the US Government is not buying any of it. I would expect that even when M855 is gone from Federal Service, ATK will still be making it for law enforcement, foreign sales, and commercial sales. I would expect the price to rise.

MrPlink
03-11-2015, 1:19 AM
But if they bought all the 855 ammo, banned it, and sold it for double they would just be capitalists.

No Comrade.
They would be stupid for destroying the future viability of the market.
Capitalism isn't about fly by night sales.
But I'm sure you knew that.

Mayor McRifle
03-11-2015, 5:33 AM
Capitalism isn't about fly by night sales.


Can you cite some authority for this claim? Does your version of capitalism limit the type of profits or sales that can be made? Who regulates that? It sounds like you're just making it up as you go along.

Intimid8tor
03-11-2015, 5:40 AM
I can't believe you guys are still whining about this crap. Actually I can.

Some people are going to get left holding the ball. Many will be the unprepared who cry about all the panics. Some will be those that bought at 50CPR thinking they could sell for 60 or 70CPR. They'll take a loss on it if they turn it. Or they may hold it until the next panic.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

Don't allow yourself to be complacent. There will be further restrictions, there will be panics and there will be increased prices. When the prices drop, if they do, stack it deep.

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 6:49 AM
Because supply and demand isn't a 2 dimensional concept as you seem to think (or believe it should be) is.

Under the principles of a free market if "flippers" are seen as 1) immoral, overpriced, or all of the above then the market itself will take care of them by not buying from them. Easy as that.
But guess what the reality is? Nobody gives a F about the former, only the latter.

You aren't alone in your sentiments (as evidenced by all your comrades in this thread) but how come it hasn't stopped private individuals from speculating on the firearms market?

You would have to be pretty naive to think that private speculators that raid walmart have a substantial effect on the market. Guess what? Anybody who purchases has an effect on the market. Whether you intend to consume, hord, or re-sell, it does not matter. Under panic circumstances the supply becomes strained period.

I could go on and on. But u paid good cash for my education, and you aren't paying me so... ( I know I know, I am horrible for hoarding my information )



I believe without a doubt that you believe you do.

The more extreme elements of this club believe the same things you do.
You should look them up
www.dscc.org/join
Smugly Ignorant of what I'm saying much?

I know the cool kids who don't debate well frequently toss out "you're just like an antiguner/commie/democrat," when they can't think of something intelligent to say, and you don't fail to disappoint.

Show me where the democrats DO NOT call for any government action, or even consumer boycotts, in the face of objectionable actions in then marketplace.

You've got some purely simplistic and academic notion that any simple criticism of immoral practices is "wrong" or naive. Capitalism, pure Darwinian capitalism, can be objectionable but still legal.

Show me where social pressure, the simple act of criticizing an action as immoral, and douchebaggery, is anathema to capitalism, pro commie, or even left wing. I'll wait here, oh dispenser of opinions that I'm "naive".

Oooops, another simplistic failure to either understand my position, or to intelligently respond to it. You're certainly making the most of your education.

I'm not naive for thinking the local buyers affect supply. To the contrary, youre abjectly clueless, or lying, if you claim that, given this particular shortage of rim fire, which has reduced supply through a combination of hoarding for private use and buyingsolely for flipping at a profit, hasn't created a unique situation. Very few brick and mortar stores sell ammo these days. I would wager that most recreational shooters purchase ammo exclusively through brick and mortar stores.

When the suply was affected by the panic buying, the supply dwindled to a trickle. The local supply of brick and mortar .22 rim fire is undeniably affected by a small number of individuals who have learned the delivery patterns of these places, and routinely clean them out, artificially extending the "shortage" which props up their pricing.

Guess what, someone else purchasing that rimfire, and not listing it for sale for .10/round, does NOT affect pricing. Unless they sell it, the price remains what they paid. Whatever Wal mart or turners charges is the price. If supply can't keep up, prices will rise. But now, wal mart is making their expected profits, while douchebag flippers are increasing the cost of rimfire, but bringi nothing to the table. I criticize that, to seek to stifle that criticism through self important delusion that you understand this better than I do. .

Gloat about your taxpayer funded education all you want, you missed a lot. Mine was free as well, an academic free ride.

You've abjectly failed to point out something that I do t understand about this situation.

westcoaster
03-11-2015, 7:09 AM
I'll admit, I bought during the panic, but only paid 40 cents/round, so I don't feel like it was a total ripoff, I just considered the added cost "insurance". I was running low on 5.56 anyways. So I wasted maybe $50-$100 on 1000 rounds, but most of us also waste more than that every month on car insurance that we never use.

Yes, it's smart to stock up before there is a panic, but the problem is we never know what the next panic will be. Maybe there will be a proposed ban on polymer handguns in the future? That doesn't mean we should all run out and stockpile Glocks while the prices are down...

I would happily pay 40 cents around anytime. I paid 50 cents a round about a month ago and felt it wasn't too horrible a buy... what price will it drop to, now?

scoobydo
03-11-2015, 7:31 AM
I would happily pay 40 cents around anytime. I paid 50 cents a round about a month ago and felt it wasn't too horrible a buy... what price will it drop to, now?

Yeah, I paid 40 cents for the Doublemint and thought that was high!
I'm definitely not a buyer in this market, but then again I'm cheap in any market.

I hear the ATF is going after Spearmint next...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=182965&d=1354655514

hossb7
03-11-2015, 8:31 AM
You guys are absolutely insane for spending more than $0.40/round

http://i.imgur.com/gQ8s3mf.jpg

tonyxcom
03-11-2015, 9:46 AM
Once you factor in shipping, the price can go up 2 to 3 cents per round.

hossb7
03-11-2015, 9:53 AM
Last week I bought a case of M193 for $0.33/round shipped.

Heretodaygonetomorrow
03-11-2015, 10:02 AM
Your logic is flawed. Someone who flips is different from mark ups in retail stores. There is nothing wrong with investing in something but clearing shelves in the morning to try and double or triple your profit is borderline unethical. If a earthquake hit California hard and things went bad, it would be unethical to clear the canned goods and bottled water from store shelves and try and sell those items in the parking lot for 3 times the retail price.


Last time I checked, with was America, and people are free to buy whatever they can legally from a warehouse or retail store, and resale it for whatever price they want to, at their own risk. Meaning that if they offer for sale, and nobody buys, the asking price is too high for the market, and the product they are offering is being rejected by the market at the asking price.

Will some people by at the inflated price anyway, even though the majority of the people are driving by. Yes, for whatever their personal reason is. Panic purchase afraid that there won't be any supply in the future, and no time or not willing to take time to shop are two reason that people might by anyway at a higher than generally accepted price.

Are the Flippers taking advantage of the situation? As people have pointed out, Flippers are investing to try to take advantage of what they perceive as an opportunity in the market. And the market bubble can burst just as fast as it grew. Will the Flippers lose money on ammo? Doubtful, as they probably didn't buy at much over market, and they can always store or shoot the ammo they don't sell.

Now to the Whinners. You didn't buy the ammo when you had a chance to get it off the same shelves at the same prices that the Flippers did. It's been sitting there, unclaimed, while you spent your money on other things, and used your time on other projects. Now, when you perceive a urgency to buy ammo, you expect the stores to hold onto it for you and sell it to you at the time and place of your choosing, at the price you want to pay? Not happening here.

People buy stiff in retail stores to resell at the time and place of their choosing all the time. Where do all the hot dogs, burgers, and sodas sold at fund raisers, and small hotdog stands and burger joints come from? The stuff does always come from wholesale suppliers, and wholesale suppliers don't all sell to everybody, even if the parties have a Resale License, the Buyers purchasing volume dictates where he'she gets the stuff, AND many small volume sellers buy stuff in retail stores at the same price they could buy stuff for from wholesalers if they could.

Last year I cold my computer sales and service business after over 30 years in business. The remaining/surviving box stores have been selling many computer products for less than I was paying for them at the Regional and National Wholesale Price Levels. The net profit had dropped to less than the risk that was involved in buying and holding products for sale. I made a point of reading the newspaper and watching the Internet to get the best possible price on the products I was selling, and bought where ever the price was the best.

If some choose to buy bottled water, and sell it on a street corner for two or three times what he just bought it for by the case, as individual bottles, you might buy a bottle as you drive by, paying the extra money as a convenience to save you the time you'd spend going to the store and waiting in line to pay. Other people would drive on by, not needing that bottle of water, or not willing to pay the Seller's price.

You have the same choice with ammo.

8mmFMJ
03-11-2015, 10:10 AM
I bought up all of my local walmarts ZQI. maybe 1000 rounds, for somewhere around ~35 cents a pop or so. Hell, I'm still happy. I'll be reloading the brass for a very long time and I got a good deal on it. I don't feel bad for the people that bought at 50 plus, neither should you.

varanidguy
03-11-2015, 10:13 AM
What happens when they attack our powder? Which I find as nothing less than a miracle they haven't gone after yet considering its potential of massive destruction if used in a bomb.

Ssshhhhh....don't give anyone any ideas.

Also, hopefully, by the time anything like that happens, IF it happens, most people will be stocked up enough. Hopefully.

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 10:18 AM
Last time I checked, with was America, and people are free to buy whatever they can legally from a warehouse or retail store, and resale it for whatever price they want to, at their own risk. Meaning that if they offer for sale, and nobody buys, the asking price is too high for the market, and the product they are offering is being rejected by the market at the asking price.

Will some people by at the inflated price anyway, even though the majority of the people are driving by. Yes, for whatever their personal reason is. Panic purchase afraid that there won't be any supply in the future, and no time or not willing to take time to shop are two reason that people might by anyway at a higher than generally accepted price.

Are the Flippers taking advantage of the situation? As people have pointed out, Flippers are investing to try to take advantage of what they perceive as an opportunity in the market. And the market bubble can burst just as fast as it grew. Will the Flippers lose money on ammo? Doubtful, as they probably didn't buy at much over market, and they can always store or shoot the ammo they don't sell.

Now to the Whinners. You didn't buy the ammo when you had a chance to get it off the same shelves at the same prices that the Flippers did. It's been sitting there, unclaimed, while you spent your money on other things, and used your time on other projects. Now, when you perceive a urgency to buy ammo, you expect the stores to hold onto it for you and sell it to you at the time and place of your choosing, at the price you want to pay? Not happening here.

People buy stiff in retail stores to resell at the time and place of their choosing all the time. Where do all the hot dogs, burgers, and sodas sold at fund raisers, and small hotdog stands and burger joints come from? The stuff does always come from wholesale suppliers, and wholesale suppliers don't all sell to everybody, even if the parties have a Resale License, the Buyers purchasing volume dictates where he'she gets the stuff, AND many small volume sellers buy stuff in retail stores at the same price they could buy stuff for from wholesalers if they could.

Last year I cold my computer sales and service business after over 30 years in business. The remaining/surviving box stores have been selling many computer products for less than I was paying for them at the Regional and National Wholesale Price Levels. The net profit had dropped to less than the risk that was involved in buying and holding products for sale. I made a point of reading the newspaper and watching the Internet to get the best possible price on the products I was selling, and bought where ever the price was the best.

If some choose to buy bottled water, and sell it on a street corner for two or three times what he just bought it for by the case, as individual bottles, you might buy a bottle as you drive by, paying the extra money as a convenience to save you the time you'd spend going to the store and waiting in line to pay. Other people would drive on by, not needing that bottle of water, or not willing to pay the Seller's price.

You have the same choice with ammo.

Reread your first sentence. Now read it again. Ok,one more time. Humor me.

All anyone is doing is saying they feel a practice is unethical. That's simply speech, something we enjoy here. Butt hurt about it? Too bad.

And your pathetic bleating that anyone who criticizes this is a poor planner, are you reading my posts? I don't need ammo. I have cases of ammo from the z80s and 90s that I will likely never shoot. Many are unopened. My last case of 9mm cost $119 shipped to my door. Factory fresh in 50 round boxes.

I am not motivated by a butt hurt inability to get what I want at a price I like. I already did that. It disgusts me that people are screwing other shooters with this flipping crap. I don't like it because it's douchebag behavior, not because I can't get what I want. Why is that so hard to understand?

If it bothers you that others think a practice is douchebaggery, maybe look to yourself instead of calling anyone who criticizes your decisions a commie or whining that they don't understand supply and demand.

tonyxcom
03-11-2015, 11:00 AM
If some choose to buy bottled water, and sell it on a street corner for two or three times what he just bought it for by the case, as individual bottles, you might buy a bottle as you drive by, paying the extra money as a convenience to save you the time you'd spend going to the store and waiting in line to pay. Other people would drive on by, not needing that bottle of water, or not willing to pay the Seller's price.

You have the same choice with ammo.

Not during a panic.

Your analogy would be correct if the person on the street BOUGHT ALL THE WATER with the sole intention of reselling it to someone who cannot buy it at the store anymore because you bought it all.

That's the difference here.

And this is why a lot of us think its douchey.

Imagine you are in line for tickets to a game or show and the 5 guys in front of you bought all the tickets but offered to sell them to you for just double what they paid. Yay capitalism?

It's the peak of flu season and you get sick so you go to the store to get some relief but there isn't any more medicine on the shelves. But the guy who bought it all is outside selling it for a profit. Yay capitalism?

Your 9yo son asks you to take him to shooting. You go to your local Walmart, Turners, Big 5 etc to buy a brick of 22 but there isn't any to be found. Yay capitalism?

The point we are trying to make is that when people buy up all the inventory of any product with the sole intention of reselling it you are hurting the market for everyone, including yourselves.

Instead of people being able to buy ammo in smaller quantities only when they needed it (circa 2010), you have all of these flippers turning everyone into hoarders out of necessity. Now everyone is buying all the ammo either to resell, or to hoard just to protect themselves from the flippers.

This is why prices take so long to come back down and vary rarely go back to where they were pre-panic.

It's a vicious cycle and just another example of being our own worst enemy.

Yay capitalism!

jeffyhog
03-11-2015, 11:13 AM
So say I have 100 cases of water stored in my garage, that I paid an average of $4 per case. An earthquake or other disaster happens and immediately all the water is cleared out of the stores. I decide to capitalize on it and sell off half my stash. I decide to sell my water at $5 per bottle, or $100 per case. Would that be unethical? After all, I purchased the water when it was available, used my space to store it, took the risk of it getting damaged, etc.

I don't think $5 per bottle would be unreasonable at all. After all, people are happy to pay that price for a bottle when they go to a ball game, concert, amusement park, etc. Guaranteed there would be a lot of unprepared whiners.

tonyxcom
03-11-2015, 11:22 AM
So say I have 100 cases of water stored in my garage, that I paid an average of $4 per case. An earthquake or other disaster happens and immediately all the water is cleared out of the stores. I decide to capitalize on it and sell off half my stash. I decide to sell my water at $5 per bottle, or $100 per case. Would that be unethical? After all, I purchased the water when it was available, used my space to store it, took the risk of it getting damaged, etc.

I don't think $5 per bottle would be unreasonable at all. After all, people are happy to pay that price for a bottle when they go to a ball game, concert, amusement park, etc. Guaranteed there would be a lot of unprepared whiners.

That would be price gouging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging) and could potentially be considered a crime.

jeffyhog
03-11-2015, 11:36 AM
It would be price gouging if Costco and Vons jacked the price up, but I don't know about private individuals. I'm sure there would be immediate limits placed on vital necessities to keep people from backing a semi up and buying the whole store.
As I stated, people are happy to pay $5 per bottle at all sorts of events.

devilcaninex
03-11-2015, 11:40 AM
" What difference at this point does it make?"

tonyxcom
03-11-2015, 11:44 AM
" What difference at this point does it make?"


None. It's just an opportunity for the few of us that think that ammo flipping is douchey, to point and laugh at the them.

elSquid
03-11-2015, 11:52 AM
Imagine you are in line for tickets to a game or show and the 5 guys in front of you bought all the tickets but offered to sell them to you for just double what they paid. Yay capitalism?


You had to work that day and couldn't be in line for tickets for the "hot" concert. However, you can buy those tickets on the secondary market and still go to the concert. Yay capitalism!



It's the peak of flu season and you get sick so you go to the store to get some relief but there isn't any more medicine on the shelves. But the guy who bought it all is outside selling it for a profit. Yay capitalism?


Yup, because you can actually get the medicine you need, instead of staring at empty store shelves.



Your 9yo son asks you to take him to shooting. You go to your local Walmart, Turners, Big 5 etc to buy a brick of 22 but there isn't any to be found. Yay capitalism?


...so you turn to the calguns marketplace and buy a brick for $70. You still get to go shooting! Yay capitalism!


The point we are trying to make is that when people buy up all the inventory of any product with the sole intention of reselling it you are hurting the market for everyone, including yourselves.

Instead of people being able to buy ammo in smaller quantities only when they needed it (circa 2010), you have all of these flippers turning everyone into hoarders out of necessity. Now everyone is buying all the ammo either to resell, or to hoard just to protect themselves from the flippers.


This last panic was due to the fact that folks were looking at a complete, probably permanent, ban of a type of ammunition. Folks were buying with the assumption that they might not be able to buy any more in the future from retail channels. Retail channels that were set for a "standard" level of demand, and were completely unable to satisfy the spike of orders from average shooters. When guys who maybe bought a case of 855 once or twice a year suddenly decided that they needed two cases _right now_, that was it...

-- Michael

static2126
03-11-2015, 12:02 PM
Not during a panic.

Your analogy would be correct if the person on the street BOUGHT ALL THE WATER with the sole intention of reselling it to someone who cannot buy it at the store anymore because you bought it all.

That's the difference here.

And this is why a lot of us think its douchey.

Imagine you are in line for tickets to a game or show and the 5 guys in front of you bought all the tickets but offered to sell them to you for just double what they paid. Yay capitalism?

It's the peak of flu season and you get sick so you go to the store to get some relief but there isn't any more medicine on the shelves. But the guy who bought it all is outside selling it for a profit. Yay capitalism?

Your 9yo son asks you to take him to shooting. You go to your local Walmart, Turners, Big 5 etc to buy a brick of 22 but there isn't any to be found. Yay capitalism?

The point we are trying to make is that when people buy up all the inventory of any product with the sole intention of reselling it you are hurting the market for everyone, including yourselves.

Instead of people being able to buy ammo in smaller quantities only when they needed it (circa 2010), you have all of these flippers turning everyone into hoarders out of necessity. Now everyone is buying all the ammo either to resell, or to hoard just to protect themselves from the flippers.

This is why prices take so long to come back down and vary rarely go back to where they were pre-panic.

It's a vicious cycle and just another example of being our own worst enemy.

Yay capitalism!



I get what you are trying to say but this is not understanding capitalism/whining about being on the losing side of capitalism at it's finest.

I wanted a P07 in 2015. I gladly offered 900 for one knowing I would be paying more. Capitalism means some speculator who purchased this for resale will sell me one to profit. I had no takers at 900, so I raised my price to 1k. Someone sold me one. Shot 2k rounds out of it and didn't like it. Sold it for 800

I'm glad that the speculator was there so I could scratch that itch. 200 dollar "loss" was me not knowing what I wanted. No biggie

tonyxcom
03-11-2015, 12:07 PM
You had to work that day and couldn't be in line for tickets for the "hot" concert. However, you can buy those tickets on the secondary market and still go to the concert. Yay capitalism!


No I took the day off work and was in line. If it weren't for the guys in front of me, myself and the hundreds of people behind me could have bought tickets at face value.



Yup, because you can actually get the medicine you need, instead of staring at empty store shelves.


Except the people that ACTUALLY NEEDED the medicine had to pay more for it because of some capitalist in the parking lot.



...so you turn to the calguns marketplace and buy a brick for $70. You still get to go shooting! Yay capitalism!


But what about the 10s of thousands of shooters in California that don't know Calguns exists? Or those that do but simply can't afford to spend that much on ammo for whatever reason. There are a lot of people that just go back home. A lot of people that might no longer enjoy gun ownership because it takes too much work, speculation and planning to take random trips to the range.



This last panic was due to the fact that folks were looking at a complete, probably permanent, ban of a type of ammunition. Folks were buying with the assumption that they might not be able to buy any more in the future from retail channels. Retail channels that were set for a "standard" level of demand, and were completely unable to satisfy the spike of orders from average shooters. When guys who maybe bought a case of 855 once or twice a year suddenly decided that they needed two cases _right now_, that was it...

-- Michael

I agree. Except I think there is a disproportionate amount of people buying up inventory for the sole purpose of reselling it. And with each new panic I am sure that number is only growing.

We are only a few panics shy of people buying ALL ammo ALL the time and it wont be long before buying from flippers will be the only way to get ammo if you can't live at your computer or stand in line at Walmart every morning. It's been over 2 years since Sandy Hook and 22LR is still hard to walk in a buy at most stores that typically carry it.

This reality does not meet the definition or spirit of a free market to me.

JackRydden224
03-11-2015, 12:12 PM
Like Citadel said you can be a capitalist and a douchebag. No one is has a problem with someone else being a capitalist we just don't like douchebags. Some of you can't seem to understand we are talking about two related but different things. If I'm an investor and I lost all everyone's money can I just say "Capitalism!" and expect no one to be mad at me?

static2126
03-11-2015, 12:17 PM
No I took the day off work and was in line. If it weren't for the guys in front of me, myself and the hundreds of people behind me could have bought tickets at face value.

This is unfortunate but it has happened to me too. Thus is life. It happened playoff game I really wanted to go to too...sigh. I'm not entitled to go to the baseball game I wanted to, I should have gotten there earlier


the people that ACTUALLY NEEDED the medicine had to pay more for it because of some capitalist in the parking lot.

Sometimes preplanning is good. While one cannot predict everything, certain medicinal staples should be stocked. If not they deserve to pay more for lack fo foresight.

If it's a rare outbreak event or outbreak it's rare that the flippers would have stocked up beforehand as well. Otherwise once again not ideal but life's not perfect either.



what about the 10s of thousands of shooters in California that don't know Calguns exists? Or those that do but simply can't afford to spend that much on ammo for whatever reason. There are a lot of people that just go back home. A lot of people that might no longer enjoy gun ownership because it takes too much work, speculation and planning to take random trips to the range.

Ammo is not that much of a cost in the grand scheme of things. How many people have 200 a month cable TV packages but complain about the cost about buying ammo.

My friend has 50 guns but no ammo and complains about ammo price gouging..what is the point of 50 guns and no ammo...you have inefficient rocks

My other friend buys new cars ever 5 years and new cell phones yearly but can't afford ammo...need to prioritize what is important to you


. Except I think there is a disproportionate amount of people buying up inventory for the sole purpose of reselling it. And with each new panic I am sure that number is only growing.

We are only a few panics shy of people buying ALL ammo ALL the time and it wont be long before buying from flippers will be the only way to get ammo if you can't live at your computer or stand in line at Walmart every morning. It's been over 2 years since Sandy Hook and 22LR is still hard to walk in a buy at most stores that typically carry it.

I think this is impossible, manufacturing will increase. If the USA wan't so anti gun (threats of bans or scares every 5 or 8 years) manufacturing would have already increased

static2126
03-11-2015, 12:20 PM
Like Citadel said you can be a capitalist and a douchebag. No one is has a problem with someone else being a capitalist we just don't like douchebags. Some of you can't seem to understand we are talking about two related but different things. If I'm an investor and I lost all everyone's money can I just say "Capitalism!" and expect no one to be mad at me?

Yes you can be a capitalist an a douchebag...in fact there is sometimes overlap.

You can lose everyone's money and people will be pissed at you. Hopefully the penalty for you is the loss of your livelihood as an investor as people stop giving you money. Anyone that is still stupid enough to invest...well a fool and his money....

boopiejones
03-11-2015, 12:40 PM
the problem with ammo is that there is a relatively limited supply vs. demand. essentially what happened is a group of old retired guys decided to go to walmart and buy up all the 22lr the second it hit the shelves, and then resell it for a bunch more money to people actually need the ammo so they can spend some quality time with their kids at the range. even at $70 a brick, it's worth it for me to spend quality time with my kids. but it would be even better if it was readily available on the shelves at my local sporting goods store. even if it was $70/brick. i'd rather buy it at a real store, vs. having to bring a wad of cash to some clandestine meeting in a supermarket parking lot with a guy in an adidas track suit and a thick russian accent. i wish the old guys changed their hobby to bingo instead of flipping/gouging.

and whoever thinks it's ok to buy up all the cough syrup and resell in the parking lot for more money is an absolute moron. you'd likely get reported and arrested, and rightfully so.

static2126
03-11-2015, 12:46 PM
the problem with ammo is that there is a relatively limited supply vs. demand. essentially what happened is a group of old retired guys decided to go to walmart and buy up all the 22lr the second it hit the shelves, and then resell it for a bunch more money to people actually need the ammo so they can spend some quality time with their kids at the range. even at $70 a brick, it's worth it for me to spend quality time with my kids. but it would be even better if it was readily available on the shelves at my local sporting goods store. even if it was $70/brick. i'd rather buy it at a real store, vs. having to bring a wad of cash to some clandestine meeting in a supermarket parking lot with a guy in an adidas track suit and a thick russian accent. i wish the old guys changed their hobby to bingo instead of flipping/gouging.

and whoever thinks it's ok to buy up all the cough syrup and resell in the parking lot for more money is an absolute moron. you'd likely get reported and arrested, and rightfully so.

Agreed on cough syrup, water, food during emergencies, etc

If you gouge those items in times of panic it's not ok.

geoint
03-11-2015, 12:50 PM
The smart ones buy when the price are down. We collect ammo over a long period of time so we never have to panic buy. It's too late when the panic starts.

My guess is all the flippers were those who were smart enough to buy while it was low and just had inventory on hand. They may be despicable but that doesnt automatically mean stupid (at least not all of them)

The stupid ones were the ones buying during the panic in the first place.

static2126
03-11-2015, 12:54 PM
The stupid ones were the ones buying during the panic in the first place.

So true

RotaryRevn
03-11-2015, 12:55 PM
Lots of entertainment in this thread

Mayor McRifle
03-11-2015, 12:55 PM
My guess is all the flippers were those who were smart enough to buy while it was low and just had inventory on hand.


LOL. You have much to learn, young Grasshopper.

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 1:01 PM
Agreed on cough syrup, water, food during emergencies, etc

If you gouge those items in times of panic it's not ok.

Why? It's capitalism, right?

I don't think cough syrup ever saved anyone, or that anyone died from not having it, it's palliative, not curative.

Water? There's plenty of water that can be boiled, nobody is going to die without bottled water.

There is a line that can be crossed. It's like trying to define porn, difficult with words, but I know it when I see it.

I'm not troubled by the difficulty in describing. It with words, because I do t seek to DO anything about it. I'm just calling it what it is.

Again, I don't want or need ammo. I have a case of green tip that I never bothered to open, it's in the vaguely defined post road warrior stash. I've got several thou .22 that I paid 4-6 cents per, delivered, after it became crazy.

It's not ME being emotional and butt hurt, it's the douchebag flipper desperately trying to hide behind the flag.

Anyone who thinks ammo sales in California is anything like a "free market" has tremendous shortcomings in understanding markets. I can list the stores within 30 miles of my house that EVER sell .22, even when supply was good, to illustrate

Several wal marts
Turners
Stockade
Brea range
Field time range

That's it, there may be one or two more, but you see the issue. Once the supply was disrupted due to panic purchasing, a very few individuals could cover these stores and purchase all .22 that is put on the shelves, AS it is being put on the shelves.

Now, because they bought it all, there's still "a shortage", so they can command whatever price they wish.

Sure, if every single person who wants ammo folded their arms, these guys would be sunk by the time the next credit card bill rolled in, but as I referenced above, MANY shooters NEVER buy ammo other than locally. I can't blame someone whose kid asked to go shooting, they pay what they pay.

My dad shoots about monthly. He's 83. He's been shooting for 75 years. He looks at me like I'm crazy when I get a case delivered. If He wants to shoot today, he will buy a box to shoot today. It's the way I grew up, there was ALWAYS ammo on the shelves. I can't remember a change in the ready availability of ammo until at least the King inspired la riots.

So since there are almost no brick and mortar stores that sell ammo to begin with, and since a few people can and do affect that supply, it's nothing like a free market.

"Capitalism" isn't a catch all that covers any and all transactions where one party isn't holding a gun to the others head.

If I bought all the water before a hurricane, then used the "shortage" to justify $10 a bottle, I'd be a douchebag.

Period.

static2126
03-11-2015, 1:04 PM
My grandpa has the same mentality as your dad. I want a case now, I'll buy it now....

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 1:08 PM
My grandpa has the same mentality as your dad. I want a case now, I'll buy it now....

Of course. I buy everything but the firearms in bulk now.

Ammo, primers, powder, projectiles. A thousand at a time. When I see it, I buy it. A little at a time and pretty soon you have a supply that is impervious to most market changes.

But I'm the exception. I don't like to see some guy trying to take his kid shooting getting rammed by some flipper pretending "capitalism" converts douchebaggery to something else.

static2126
03-11-2015, 1:11 PM
Yup I'm the same minimum 5k ammo orders, though that only lasts around 5 months or so

tonyxcom
03-11-2015, 1:20 PM
I was able to purchase a decent amount of 22LR last year by getting in on all the Cabela's and Gander Mountain sales online. I spend 10-15hrs a day at my computer for work so it was fairly easy to amass close to 10k rounds.

I've given away more that I have shot and any that I sold was at my cost. And if I ever came across some dad just wanting to take his kid shooting I'd happily sell more at my cost.

Rhyyke
03-11-2015, 1:37 PM
The stupid ones were the ones buying during the panic in the first place.

This is the point right here. All the nuances between capitalism and douchebaggery would be moot if people just refused to pay the prices. I don't store much ammo, maybe 500 rounds ish of either caliber (I only shoot 5.56/.223 and .45).

Here's the way I saw it, there were 3 possible outcomes:

1. The ban would happen and only affect XM855: In which case I could deal with not just shooting my pistols for a couple months until the price of .223 calms down again.

2. The ban would not happen: In which case I would feel silly paying over $0.50 a round especially when regular .223 would become available again.

3. There will be a total and complete ban on all 5.56/.223 ammo: In this highly unlikely end of the world scenario, buying during the panic would only gain me an extra expensive shooting trip or three, not really worth the effort in my opinion.

Relative to me, the price of XM855 never changed, I was not interested in buying it before, and only lost interest further when the price shot up. All the "prices" posted over in the Ammo Sales meant nothing to me because I could control my demand.

JackRydden224
03-11-2015, 4:50 PM
Cheaper Than Dirt: $100 PMAGS - Capitalism!

Gun owners: Boycott those douchebags!

Flippers: $1/round for Green Tips or $100 for a brick of 22s! Capitalism!

Gun owner 1: Capitalism!

Gun owner 2: Douchbag!

So are flippers the same as CTD or are they different?

Rhyyke
03-11-2015, 5:27 PM
The same. Both actions are defensible under the banner of capitalism, but that doesn't make them good people or mean we have to like them.

elSquid
03-11-2015, 5:34 PM
Cheaper Than Dirt: $100 PMAGS - Capitalism!

Gun owners: Boycott those douchebags!

Flippers: $1/round for Green Tips or $100 for a brick of 22s! Capitalism!

Gun owner 1: Capitalism!

Gun owner 2: Douchbag!

So are flippers the same as CTD or are they different?

I assume that the people that ***** about CTD charging prices that the market will bear in times of scarcity are people that demand to pay MSRP and refuse to price shop between vendors when supply is good. Because condemning CTD while being a person who generally attempts to buy at the cheapest price possible would be pretty self-serving and hypocritical.

-- Michael

ijustdontknow
03-11-2015, 5:51 PM
I've panic purchased a lot of ammo and several guns. And a few knives. Never sold a single one of them. I've also never paid outrageous prices to flippers.

This whole situation reminds me of ticket brokers for concerts. I would say that the people who pay the flippers crazy prices for the products are more to blame that the flippers themselves. But it's also none of my business what someone else wants to pay and why.

I guess what I'm saying is, some of you get really worked up about things.

golfish
03-11-2015, 6:01 PM
let em all charge what they want. Some people have more money then brains. I like to think I have less money and no brains. I went to WM on Sat to buy bathroom stuff for the wife. They didn't have any .223 ZQI ammo, all they had was AE 120rd boxes for 60.00 (something around that price) I bought one and another 100 rd box of Fed 12ga. I feel I've wasted my time and gas not buying some 12ga ;) You can never have too much 12ga, unless you don't have a shotgun :)

I hang my head in shame because I bought a box of M855 at Big5 when they had it on sale about the time the ATF made it public they planned to ban it. I generally don't buy this ammo because I'm not supposed to shoot it on BLM land. I spent 70.00 and change for 150rds.

hossb7
03-11-2015, 6:02 PM
Cheaper Than Dirt: $100 PMAGS - Capitalism!

Gun owners: Boycott those douchebags!

Flippers: $1/round for Green Tips or $100 for a brick of 22s! Capitalism!

Gun owner 1: Capitalism!

Gun owner 2: Douchbag!

So are flippers the same as CTD or are they different?

Anyone has the ability to sell something for whatever price they think they can get.


Everyone else has the freedom NOT to purchase a production from the above individual.

If someone finds themselves amidst a panic and ends up spending a ****load more than they normally would have, then perhaps they should have prepared better.

OR perhaps they shouldn't buy anything during the panic, and wait until it's over.

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 6:04 PM
Anyone has the ability to sell something for whatever price they think they can get.


Everyone else has the freedom NOT to purchase a production from the above individual.

If someone finds themselves amidst a panic and ends up spending a ****load more than they normally would have, then perhaps they should have prepared better.

OR perhaps they shouldn't buy anything during the panic, and wait until it's over.
Does this hold for medicine? Diapers?

Or just ammo?

hossb7
03-11-2015, 6:06 PM
Does this hold for medicine? Diapers?

Or just ammo?

What is this thread about? It's about ammo.

Also, if you have a child or need to take medication on a regular basis and haven't prepared yourself for "WHAT IF" then what am I, the individual, expected to say?

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 6:15 PM
What is this thread about? It's about ammo.

Also, if you have a child or need to take medication on a regular basis and haven't prepared yourself for "WHAT IF" then what am I, the individual, expected to say?

Don't be coy. Knee jerk simplistic "it's capitalism, man" responses are appropriately challenged.

You can pretend a parent "should" have an unlimited(really?) supply of a drug the child needs, but that's idiotic. Drugs have shelf lives, maybe it's a condition that just arose, etc.

Pretending it's the "fault" of the person who doesn't have something is weak.

How about bottled water after a hurricane? When am I supposed to buy that? Plywood? Batteries?

Why fight it? Buying something in a limited supply like ammo, which doesn't exist as a true open market, simply to be able to point to the absence of the item to justify high prices is douchebaggery.

hossb7
03-11-2015, 6:39 PM
Don't be coy. Knee jerk simplistic "it's capitalism, man" responses are appropriately challenged.

You can pretend a parent "should" have an unlimited(really?) supply of a drug the child needs, but that's idiotic. Drugs have shelf lives, maybe it's a condition that just arose, etc.

Pretending it's the "fault" of the person who doesn't have something is weak.

How about bottled water after a hurricane? When am I supposed to buy that? Plywood? Batteries?

Why fight it? Buying something in a limited supply like ammo, which doesn't exist as a true open market, simply to be able to point to the absence of the item to justify high prices is douchebaggery.

a) show me where I'm blindly defending capitalism.

b) where did i say "unlimited"?

c) re: fault. you're right. a better way to say the same thing is that it's the RESPONSIBILITY of the person to make sure they're prepared. if you live in an area that has hurricanes, it's your responsibility to be prepared. same goes for earthquakes, etc. Hell, even extreme weather conditions (heat waves, snow storms, etc).

d) your anger is misguided towards me. i'm not afraid to call people who jack prices during a panic a douchebag.


People are free to sell products for whatever price they want.

People are free to buy (or not buy) products from whatever vendor they want.

People are free to call the above douchebags for buying or selling while the market is either high or low.

Whats your point, here?

getafterit
03-11-2015, 6:57 PM
Vote with your dollars folks...if you don't like what they're selling don't buy. Though I admit my emotional reaction is thinking those people a d bags.

The real question is how are the powers that be going to keep all of the war surplus off the market.

It's only surplus if the powers that be don't need it. I don't see that need going away anytime soon. It I digress. This is about the flippers.

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 7:13 PM
a) show me where I'm blindly defending capitalism.

b) where did i say "unlimited"?

c) re: fault. you're right. a better way to say the same thing is that it's the RESPONSIBILITY of the person to make sure they're prepared. if you live in an area that has hurricanes, it's your responsibility to be prepared. same goes for earthquakes, etc. Hell, even extreme weather conditions (heat waves, snow storms, etc).

d) your anger is misguided towards me. i'm not afraid to call people who jack prices during a panic a douchebag.


People are free to sell products for whatever price they want.

People are free to buy (or not buy) products from whatever vendor they want.

People are free to call the above douchebags for buying or selling while the market is either high or low.

Whats your point, here?

You quoted my post, it's in simple English. You want to pretend you don't get my point, have at it.

My point is crystal clear, it's douchebaggery but shouldn't be regulated in any way.

hossb7
03-11-2015, 7:27 PM
You quoted my post, it's in simple English. You want to pretend you don't get my point, have at it.

My point is crystal clear, it's douchebaggery but shouldn't be regulated in any way.

:rofl2: you're the one with comprehension problems. we're agreeing with each other. you're just so spun up about everyone else in this thread that you're not reading what i'm writing.

Gem1950
03-11-2015, 7:29 PM
You want to talk ethics - talk ethics.

You want to talk pricing above market value - nothing is above market value if it sells for the asking price.

major burnout
03-11-2015, 8:04 PM
I hope there is not any more Government proposed ammo bans...... or Hurricanes.:shrug:

Cypriss32
03-11-2015, 8:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ITr_9Avm3I

vintagearms
03-11-2015, 8:31 PM
What is this thread about? It's about ammo.

Also, if you have a child or need to take medication on a regular basis and haven't prepared yourself for "WHAT IF" then what am I, the individual, expected to say?

You do realize some medication can only be purchased every 30 days or sometimes 90 days depending on the medication and not bought in bulk, don't you? Or are you that completely stupid?

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 8:37 PM
:rofl2: you're the one with comprehension problems. we're agreeing with each other. you're just so spun up about everyone else in this thread that you're not reading what i'm writing.

Wrong. I challenged a statement of yours. You don't remember trying to confine "this" to ammo?

Cute emoticon, though.

Citadelgrad87
03-11-2015, 8:38 PM
You want to talk ethics - talk ethics.

You want to talk pricing above market value - nothing is above market value if it sells for the asking price.

As usual, wrong.

Economics isn't an excuse to abandon ethics.

spyde12
03-11-2015, 8:53 PM
All anyone is doing is saying they feel a practice is unethical.

I agree. It's one thing to buy boxes of ammo to use and/or store. It's another to buy up all newly delivered supply just as it's being shelved to flip. This causes an artifical market because those that really need it (no ammo), cannot find any in stock because those that don't (flippers), buy up all the supply. If gunners bought enough for themselves, they'll still be oos items here and there, but prices wouldn't get out of hand. Just my 0.02.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

static2126
03-11-2015, 9:08 PM
As usual, wrong.

Economics isn't an excuse to abandon ethics.

Fine but market price is still whatever 2 parties are willing to pay ethics or not. See my post on overpaying for a p07. I do not feel like I was gouged for example

tonyxcom
03-11-2015, 9:32 PM
Fine but market price is still whatever 2 parties are willing to pay ethics or not. See my post on overpaying for a p07. I do not feel like I was gouged for example

Your situation is quite different though. We aren't in a flipper induced shortage of off roster guns. So the market is truly dictating the price right now.

How would you have felt in 2014 if you walked into a store to buy a P07 but someone before you bought all of the stores inventory, and someone at another store bought all of theirs, and on and on. So if you really want the gun you have no choice but to pay their asking price. Yes, you and many others would probably want the gun enough to pay more but the only reason you are is because they created a shortage locally.

How about this. You walk into a store to sell a gun via PPT. The FFL asks the buyer how much he is paying and offers to sell him the same gun for cheaper. Yay capitalism? Or would you think the FFL was a douche move by the FFL?

Or.... you are at the gun store buying the last PO7 at that stores asking price and before the FFL submits your DROS someone calls or walks in and offers to pay a few hundred more and the FFL sells to them instead. Do you increase your offer? Yay capitalism? or Douche move by the FFL?

MrPlink
03-11-2015, 9:37 PM
As usual, wrong.

Economics isn't an excuse to abandon ethics.

That is a conclusion.
Not an argument.

But I'm sure you learned that when you aced your classes on logic, communication and English.

But I've lost all interest in arguing against emotional driven rants that are fueled by nostalgia.

So I'm moving on to a thread where I believe they are discussing the current tea prices in China as it relates to Magpul's 2015 lineup.

hossb7
03-11-2015, 10:48 PM
Wrong. I challenged a statement of yours. You don't remember trying to confine "this" to ammo?

Cute emoticon, though.

Jesus you're dense.

Tonyxcom and I both agree with you on a number of points that you make, but you're so upset that you have to work and can't camp at Wal-Mart to buy .22lr that you're unable to see that.

Kowan
03-12-2015, 5:06 AM
It's helped to convince me to order reloading supplies and reloading dies for my Dillion 550B.

sl0re10
03-12-2015, 6:31 AM
We dodged the bullet this time, but Zero and his goons will be back. I think a lot of people panicked because the news made reports that AR 15 ammo was being banned, and they didn't specify m855 or steel core, so a lot if average people ran out to buy what they could.

Many people on the forums were saying that if the ATF got away with banning M855, then they could eventually ban all 5.56 or all rifle rounds as they can penetrate police officers vests.

I think that's a bit of a stretch, but what does concern me is the prospect of them banning military surplus ammo in general. This "sporting purposes" clause really scares me. I think they will take an incremental step in banning the sale and importation of any military spec ammo. I think they will make the case that this is military grade ammo and civilians have no need for it. They will say that people still have access to commercial grade ammo, so it's not an infringement, although shooting will become much more expensive. Imagine if the only 5.56 and 7.62x39 avalable was commercial grade stuff at .75 cents per round.

This is where I'm afraid they'll go next.

Not sure it was since whatever m855 is (its hard to classify IMO); it isn't AP ammo. So; if we allowed them to ban a non AP ammo using AP rules / their existing authority to regulate AP ammo.... since it could penetrate a vest..... just saying it looked like they could really go nuts with such a precedent allowed to stand.

Citadelgrad87
03-12-2015, 6:43 AM
That is a conclusion.
Not an argument.

But I'm sure you learned that when you aced your classes on logic, communication and English.

But I've lost all interest in arguing against emotional driven rants that are fueled by nostalgia.

So I'm moving on to a thread where I believe they are discussing the current tea prices in China as it relates to Magpul's 2015 lineup.

First, clueless one, you're only lying to yourself. Any time somene falsely claims to have lost interest, only to go on and restate their position, is a transparent attempt to continue arguing with the word. Everyone knows you're not done, and everyone knows you're reading this.

And As a matter of fact, yes, I aced most of my law school classes, then I entered a very successful career as an attorney. I don't need some self important blow hard to critique my debate skills, the market does that for me, capitalist Uber alles, right?

By the way, your first misstep was the idiotic and false claim that I didn't ace Econ, I see that you've fled that position, abandoning your declarative statement with the certitude of a frightened twelve year old girl. Just because I haven't rubbed your nose in it, doesn't erase your misstep. Care to get on my grades? How's that for Econ? Still lost interest?

"That is a conclusion, not an argument" is facile idiocy. My arguments are set forth in this thread. Then you redact everything but a sentence so you can claim its a conclusion, probably because you heard someone say that and felt it pithy or wise.

It's neither. I've fully set forth my arguments, you've addressed none.

I've not posted a rant, nor is my position, or ethics, based on emotion. You're a poor debater, you've failed to grasp and support your position, and you don't understand basic markets.

The ammo market in California is nothing like a free market, but you cling to the idea that these are simp,e market forces and I'm naive to think flippers can I fluency supply like a mentally challenged person whose heard three basic Econ classes. You ignore this when pointed out. If anyone's emotionally married to their position, it's you, as you cannot engage and defend your simplistic assertions against challenge.

Perhaps your skills would,be better deployed if you get back to mopping the floor and fronting the shelves.

Citadelgrad87
03-12-2015, 6:47 AM
Jesus you're dense.

Tonyxcom and I both agree with you on a number of points that you make, but you're so upset that you have to work and can't camp at Wal-Mart to buy .22lr that you're unable to see that.

No, I'm not. You flatly asserted blame lies with the buyers, no one else.

I challenged that.

So at that point, we didn't "agree". Read the posts, familiarize yourself with your own position before calling others dense.

You posted this

"Anyone has the ability to sell something for whatever price they think they can get.

Everyone else has the freedom NOT to purchase a production from the above individual.

If someone finds themselves amidst a panic and ends up spending a ****load more than they normally would have, then perhaps they should have prepared better.

OR perhaps they shouldn't buy anything during the panic, and wait until it's over."

I smashed it with critical thinking, and it turns out you agree with me now.

That doesn't erase what you posted. It doesn't make me dense. Save the name calling for the mirror. You're the one who changed position, or poorly set forth your position. I was t the only poster slamming your moronic position regarding medicine. Get some communication skills, don't throw a tantrum.

sl0re10
03-12-2015, 6:52 AM
Well; I'm going to chime in with something to defend flippers. In part to be contrarian and because I think its true. Its probably also the reason the others are saying the flipper bashing is anti capitalist.

The flippers do not usually create the shortages and high prices. Its an exaggeration to imply they do (they can make it worse; but they didn't create it). Demand due to the market run does. The market regulates supply and demand by raising prices in response to a run. You can still find your 223 if you really need it... but because the market set it at $1.25 a round... so the people influenced by the run don't buy the remaining stock... only someone that really needs it.

Yeah; the flippers clean out the few retailers that don't raise their price... but odds are if they didn't buy it to resell high it would end up in someone's stash due to the run (and the run created shortage)... not in your hands / not available to someone with no ammo who needs some.

Ammo consumers create shortages. Shortages raise prices. Flippers try to take advantage of the raise in prices. They don't cause the situation. They don't have the econ clout to. In the end; they keep ammo available to people who really need it by keeping it on the market vs. someone's stockpile.

That said; still enjoying watching them take a bath on this. :)

tonyxcom
03-12-2015, 8:39 AM
I agree to a point, they (flippers) aren't doing this alone. But I think the situation would be a bit different without them.

It used to be different. And you don't have to be in this game for much more than 5 years to have experienced it. 855 is a unique situation but still indicative of the problems flippers can create. 22LR is a better example of a market ruined by flippers. There was no impending ban that directly affected 22LR. It was a casualty of the post Newton panic.

Many shooters went back to 22LR as the run on centerfire spiraled out of control. But even after centerfire prices stabalized in 2014, 22LR was still nearly impossible to find on shelves unless you waited in line.... with the flippers. It was fairly easy to buy on the internet if you could place an order within 5 mins of a store posting inventory. But you still had bricks at $50 or more in forums.

Even today, 22LR takes a bit of luck to find retail. Are the flippers still buying it all to keep their own prices high? Or are the hoarders buying it to protect themselves from the flippers and the next panic?

I think the flippers have a bigger net negative effect on the market.

sl0re10
03-12-2015, 8:45 AM
I agree to a point, they (flippers) aren't doing this alone. But I think the situation would be a bit different without them.

It used to be different. And you don't have to be in this game for much more than 5 years to have experienced it. 855 is a unique situation but still indicative of the problems flippers can create. 22LR is a better example of a market ruined by flippers. There was no impending ban that directly affected 22LR. It was a casualty of the post Newton panic.

Many shooters went back to 22LR as the run on centerfire spiraled out of control. But even after centerfire prices stabalized in 2014, 22LR was still nearly impossible to find on shelves unless you waited in line.... with the flippers. It was fairly easy to buy on the internet if you could place an order within 5 mins of a store posting inventory. But you still had bricks at $50 or more in forums.

Even today, 22LR takes a bit of luck to find retail. Are the flippers still buying it all to keep their own prices high? Or are the hoarders buying it to protect themselves from the flippers and the next panic?

I think the flippers have a bigger net negative effect on the market.

yeah; and we all stockpile 4x what we normally would of 22lr. :) Has something to do with the availability.

JackRydden224
03-12-2015, 8:51 AM
yeah; and we all stockpile 4x what we normally would of 22lr. :) Has something to do with the availability.

Over the last year I've actually sold a few thousand rounds of .22 LR at the price I paid for because I jump on available ammo but never shoot it :D

tonyxcom
03-12-2015, 9:49 AM
I gave away two bricks to someone on here that needed some for a Boy Scout shooting program he runs. I gave a Rem bucket to my brother for Xmas. I sold 2 bricks to a cop down south at my cost. And if I ever came across someone that really needed brick I could let one go at my cost without thinking about it.

On the rare occasion I can convince my son to go shooting he would rather shoot my AR's now than his 10/22 so I probably have enough 22LR left for this decade, if not a lifetime. And I didn't even have to order more than 1 a day at Cabelas like everyone else. (remember that thread - it was hoarders paradise in there)

major burnout
03-12-2015, 9:51 AM
Ill happily pay the flippers $30 to wake up at 0500 and stand in line at walmart. If it wasnt for the flippers the hoarders would buy all the ammo and it would never be available in the marketplace.

Of course the shortage would never happen if Obama wouldnt have come out after newtown and promised new gun control regulations or the BATFE would not have threatened a ban on M855.

Id like to thank all the numbskulls who took time to generate hate between gun owners instead of focusing on the terribly unethical practice of the gun grabbers.

tonyxcom
03-12-2015, 10:21 AM
Ill happily pay the flippers $30 to wake up at 0500 and stand in line at walmart. If it wasnt for the flippers the hoarders would buy all the ammo and it would never be available in the marketplace.

Pay $30 for what? A service fee? Or for a brick of 22LR?

barrage
03-12-2015, 10:24 AM
Ill happily pay the flippers $30 to wake up at 0500 and stand in line at walmart. If it wasnt for the flippers the hoarders would buy all the ammo and it would never be available in the marketplace.

Of course the shortage would never happen if Obama wouldnt have come out after newtown and promised new gun control regulations or the BATFE would not have threatened a ban on M855.

Id like to thank all the numbskulls who took time to generate hate between gun owners instead of focusing on the terribly unethical practice of the gun grabbers.

If it wasn't for the flippers, there'd be ammo on the shelves at 6pm for you and everyone else to grab at your convenience after work, during lunch, or on the way out to your favorite shooting spot. The hoarders got what they needed a long time ago and aren't the problem.

hossb7
03-12-2015, 10:48 AM
my walmart limits 22lr purchases to 3 boxes per person, per day.

and the ONE time i was there to buy some .40 at opening, there were about half a dozen crusty geezers waiting in line to snatch up some .22

major burnout
03-12-2015, 10:52 AM
Id like to thank all the numbskulls who took time to generate hate between gun owners instead of focusing on the terribly unethical practice of the gun grabbers

Citadelgrad87
03-12-2015, 10:55 AM
Id like to thank all the numbskulls who took time to generate hate between gun owners instead of focusing on the terribly unethical practice of the gun grabbers

Because, of course, an informal discussion of the morality of sticking it to each other has prevented anyone from donating time or money to the cause :rolleyes:

tonyxcom
03-12-2015, 10:55 AM
Id like to thank all the numbskulls who took time to generate hate between gun owners instead of focusing on the terribly unethical practice of the gun grabbers

Yay capitalism!

RANCID 518th
03-12-2015, 11:09 AM
Uhh... http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/atf-raises-new-worries-about-ar-15-ammo/article/2561422#.VQHBOwMzGbs.twitter

ReddingShooter
03-12-2015, 11:17 AM
used to be the way to go was to get a 22 conversion your your gun so you could practice cheaply. now its cheaper to shoot regular centerfire ammo than 22, all because of the flippers bvuying every bit up they can to resell.....go figure