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View Full Version : POF lowers...really cheap


OmegaTrader
03-08-2015, 2:18 PM
Just got this in the mail and wanted to share with those who want to build an AR 15. This is POF lower, one of the premier gun makers out there. You guys may want to stock up just in case.

http://store.avguns.com/pof-usa-p-15-stripped-lower-receiver/

missiontrails
03-08-2015, 3:21 PM
That's because they are basic forged, not billet. Ever see a POF rifle with a lower like that?

-hanko
03-08-2015, 3:49 PM
Just got this in the mail and wanted to share with those who want to build an AR 15. This is POF lower, one of the premier gun makers out there. You guys may want to stock up just in case.
Pakistani Ordnance Factory...

Explain why you think it's "one of the premier gun makers out there", please.

:sleeping:

ThighSlapper
03-08-2015, 3:55 PM
Pakistani Ordnance Factory...

Explain why you think it's "one of the premier gun makers out there", please.

:sleeping:

Explain how you can't use the google function to cross check your own data before making yourself look like an *****?

MrPlink
03-08-2015, 4:25 PM
POF is expensive, Im not sure that makes them good.
But as stated, this is just a run of the mill forged lower.
Nothing special here really, even price wise.

AdamVIP
03-08-2015, 4:33 PM
I was under the impression that forged lowers were stronger than billet and thus superior if done well. Is that not the case?

I'm not one for piston ARs which is what POF seems to focus on but they Do provide parts for GA Precisions GAP-10 so they must make decent stuff.

tonyxcom
03-08-2015, 5:11 PM
I was under the impression that forged lowers were stronger than billet and thus superior if done well. Is that not the case?


Somewhere down the line this notion now implies that billet lowers are weak and break all the time. We all know this isn't true but how many times have we been told that forged lowers are stronger?

MrPlink
03-08-2015, 5:24 PM
I was under the impression that forged lowers were stronger than billet and thus superior if done well. Is that not the case?

I'm not one for piston ARs which is what POF seems to focus on but they Do provide parts for GA Precisions GAP-10 so they must make decent stuff.

hypothetically, yes.

But practically I would not call billet weak. Perfectly fine for a lower.

CK_32
03-08-2015, 5:37 PM
POF is expensive, Im not sure that makes them good.
But as stated, this is just a run of the mill forged lower.
Nothing special here really, even price wise.

Don't tell the guys over, or the guys who use to be on snipers hide that. Dudes drool over POF's like they are gifts from God over there.

I was under the impression that forged lowers were stronger than billet and thus superior if done well. Is that not the case?


Billet is a higher end, more expencive metal because it's a harder but more brittle medal. Billet is technically stronger as far as hardness, but being that it's harder which makes it stronger in one aspect, it is also weaker in another aspect.

Simplified think of a tortilla and a tortilla chip. A tortilla is softer and has more play, but can't hold an ounce. A fried chip is more firm and can hold some weight on its edge, but will also crack where the standard tortilla will fold and stretch.

So either or is stronger and weaker. Just depends on the aspect they are being compared. So even tho one might be stronger than the other, the failure point of each is pretty substantial.

SloChicken
03-08-2015, 5:53 PM
Don't tell the guys over, or the guys who use to be on snipers hide that. Dudes drool over POF's like they are gifts from God over there.



Billet is a higher end, more expencive metal because it's a harder but more brittle medal. Billet is technically stronger as far as hardness, but being that it's harder which makes it stronger in one aspect, it is also weaker in another aspect.

Simplified think of a tortilla and a tortilla chip. A tortilla is softer and has more play, but can't hold an ounce. A fried chip is more firm and can hold some weight on its edge, but will also crack where the standard tortilla will fold and stretch.

So either or is stronger and weaker. Just depends on the aspect they are being compared. So even tho one might be stronger than the other, the failure point of each is pretty substantial.

Here we go again.

You have it backwards.

7075 (forged) lowers are harder, and stronger (given equal design features and equal mass) due to the very process of forging.

6061 (billet milled) lowers are softer material, and weaker overall, but easier for a CNC to mill (as they are softer) and thus this material is used.
Milling allows for "fancy designs" or one off shapes etc. Whereas 7075 forged lowers are stamped and as a result cannot easily be varied.

More on this here.
http://www.gunsumerreports.com/review_firearms_materials_and_processes_001.php

Reading is "fun"damental ...

MrPlink
03-08-2015, 5:57 PM
Don't tell the guys over, or the guys who use to be on snipers hide that. Dudes drool over POF's like they are gifts from God over there.



Billet is a higher end, more expencive metal because it's a harder but more brittle medal. Billet is technically stronger as far as hardness, but being that it's harder which makes it stronger in one aspect, it is also weaker in another aspect.

Simplified think of a tortilla and a tortilla chip. A tortilla is softer and has more play, but can't hold an ounce. A fried chip is more firm and can hold some weight on its edge, but will also crack where the standard tortilla will fold and stretch.

So either or is stronger and weaker. Just depends on the aspect they are being compared. So even tho one might be stronger than the other, the failure point of each is pretty substantial.

Not exactly the case.
In this instance billet means machined. So its strength depends on the original material used. There is nothing about the machining process that is going to make the aluminum stronger.

Forging on the other hand, is where you heat the material up and hammer the crap out of it (technical explanation). It will create a uniform grain structure to the metal the conforms with the general shape of the forging and thus make it stronger.

So if we just take some plain aluminium stock and machine it to the shape of a lower there is no way you could honestly say it is stronger than a forged lower.
Will be strong enough to be a lower? Well again, it depends on what the stock was. But again, the answer is generally yes.

tonyxcom
03-08-2015, 5:59 PM
Here we go again.

You have it backwards.

7075 (forged) lowers are harder, and stronger (given equal design features and equal mass) due to the very process of forging.

6061 (billet milled) lowers are softer material, and weaker overall, but easier for a CNC to mill (as they are softer) and thus this material is used.
Milling allows for "fancy designs" or one off shapes etc. Whereas 7075 forged lowers are stamped and as a result cannot easily be varied.

More on this here.
http://www.gunsumerreports.com/review_firearms_materials_and_processes_001.php

Reading is "fun"damental ...

This is still BS. "forged" lowers still need to be milled! And not all billet lowers are 6061.

Ever notice the magwell, the trigger pocket, the extension hole on a forged lower? Yep. Milled!

CK_32
03-08-2015, 6:16 PM
True dat, I forgot billets are fancy cause they are CNC machinesd and can have extra mag lips and fancy designs/added features forged don't.

SloChicken
03-08-2015, 6:43 PM
This is still BS. "forged" lowers still need to be milled! And not all billet lowers are 6061.

Ever notice the magwell, the trigger pocket, the extension hole on a forged lower? Yep. Milled!

not going to argue with you.

Yes, some finish milling is done on all lowers,
That doesn't change these facts.

CNC mills and their blades will last longer with the 6061 vs 7075 so manufacturers use the 6061 in almost every circumstance where a lower will be milled, conventionally referred to as "Billet Lowers" - matter of fact, why don't you do a search to find a manufacturer that is milling "billet" lowers out of 7075 stock. I bet you don't find many, if any at all.

Further the ballistic striking of the lower in the forging process aligns the aluminum's grain structure which also increases strength of the forged lower vs milled lowers.

Edit,
Here is a billet 7075 lower.
the price is about what I would expect for a 7075 setup. $500. It is nice though. http://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com/bad556-lw-lightweight-7075-t6-billet-lower-receiver-set

xxINKxx
03-08-2015, 6:43 PM
$99 is still a bit steep priced for online once you factor in transfer fees and all that.

You can get lowers at your local FFL all day long for $89/99 bucks. If you watch sales sometimes as low as $55 at turners.

Chaos2767
03-08-2015, 7:05 PM
Anderson lowers are goin for $55, I dont see anything different from the Anderson to the POF.

chuckdc
03-08-2015, 8:21 PM
Anderson lowers are goin for $55, I dont see anything different from the Anderson to the POF.

Check with Primary Arms. They have been running specials on them about every other week at $39.99. Same for the Anderson uppers, also.

tonyxcom
03-08-2015, 10:14 PM
matter of fact, why don't you do a search to find a manufacturer that is milling "billet" lowers out of 7075 stock. I bet you don't find many, if any at all.

$200ish
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3h-ambi/
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3s-ambi/
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3s/
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3h/

$129
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Spartan_15_Enhanced_Billet_Lower_Receiver_p/jb-spartan15.htm

$250
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Seekins_Precision_SP223_AR15_Lower_Gen_2_w_Ambi_p/skn-sp223lower-gen2.htm

$200
http://www.rainierarms.com/cmt-tact-gen-2-uhp-15-billet-lower-receiver

$150
http://www.rainierarms.com/eds-tactical-armory-minutemen-billet-ar15-lower-receiver-lds

$250
http://www.rainierarms.com/lancer-systems-l15-lower-competition

$200
http://www.rainierarms.com/northtech-defense-ar15-billet-lower-receiver

$225
http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-ultramatch-billet-ambi-lower-receiver

$280
http://www.rainierarms.com/san-tan-tactical-stt-15-ambi-lower-receiver-no-logo-45-safety

$200
http://www.riflegear.com/p-2002-jd-machine-tech-ar15-billet-lower-receiver.aspx



I'm having a hard time finding a billet lower that isn't 7075.

tonyxcom
03-08-2015, 10:18 PM
Further the ballistic striking of the lower in the forging process aligns the aluminum's grain structure which also increases strength of the forged lower vs milled lowers.

I don't think anyone can dispute this fact. The problem is with the way it is presented, implying that billet lowers aren't up to the task.

Ironically, every single internal surface of a forged lower is milled.

Are forged lowers stronger. Yes.

Does it matter. No.

MrPlink
03-08-2015, 11:45 PM
So... where is the debate here?
Sounds like we all agree and are friends now.

Salt Works Rifles LLC.
03-08-2015, 11:47 PM
not going to argue with you.

Yes, some finish milling is done on all lowers,
That doesn't change these facts.

CNC mills and their blades will last longer with the 6061 vs 7075 so manufacturers use the 6061 in almost every circumstance where a lower will be milled, conventionally referred to as "Billet Lowers" - matter of fact, why don't you do a search to find a manufacturer that is milling "billet" lowers out of 7075 stock. I bet you don't find many, if any at all.

Further the ballistic striking of the lower in the forging process aligns the aluminum's grain structure which also increases strength of the forged lower vs milled lowers.

Edit,
Here is a billet 7075 lower.
the price is about what I would expect for a 7075 setup. $500. It is nice though. http://www.battlearmsdevelopment.com/bad556-lw-lightweight-7075-t6-billet-lower-receiver-set

I'm unable to vouch for others, but 7075 is all is all we use and our .308 anodized set is 299.

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag261/support90/pic203-8-15_zpsjdbv3elz.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/support90/media/pic203-8-15_zpsjdbv3elz.jpg.html)


http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag261/support90/Upper%20lower%203-3-15%201_zpsjsgygln5.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/support90/media/Upper%20lower%203-3-15%201_zpsjsgygln5.jpg.html)

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag261/support90/2014-12-25%2013.46.30_zpsb3mqicvc.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/support90/media/2014-12-25%2013.46.30_zpsb3mqicvc.jpg.html)


http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag261/support90/2014-12-25%2013.47.49_zpsompg5x8p.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/support90/media/2014-12-25%2013.47.49_zpsompg5x8p.jpg.html)

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag261/support90/2014-12-25%2013.47.59_zpspsedbxhk.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/support90/media/2014-12-25%2013.47.59_zpspsedbxhk.jpg.html)

SloChicken
03-09-2015, 3:09 AM
The Saltworks stuff looks great!
If I wasn't already flush with AR rifles I would definitely grab up a set!
Good looking stuff!

-hanko
03-09-2015, 7:18 AM
Explain how you can't use the google function to cross check your own data before making yourself look like an *****?
Check the history of POF yourself and go from there. ;)

Mitch
03-09-2015, 7:40 AM
I'm having a hard time finding a billet lower that isn't 7075.
Yeah, 7075 is what's normally going to be used for "higher-end" applications where the fanbois like to compare specs. 6061 is easier to machine and so pretty common in commercial applications. It's also less expensive.

The big hoo-ha over whether forged or billet is "better" is pretty funny considering how rarely AR-15 lowers of any type fail due to strength.

BrassCase
03-09-2015, 10:18 PM
As anyone actually had a quality lower, forged or billet, actually suffer a structural failure?

Zartan
03-10-2015, 10:18 AM
Man these threads.
All billet means is a chunk of metal, or machined from billet. In the Salt Works Pictures above, the pallets are stacked with 7075 billets.

No CGer is going to use a 6061 or 7075 lower to the point of breaking, unless they knock the trigger guard ear off during assembly :)

Speaking of Salt Works, what kind of machines are you running these on? HMC and pallet stacker I assume?

ar15barrels
03-10-2015, 10:36 AM
CNC mills and their blades will last longer with the 6061 vs 7075 so manufacturers use the 6061 in almost every circumstance where a lower will be milled, conventionally referred to as "Billet Lowers" - matter of fact, why don't you do a search to find a manufacturer that is milling "billet" lowers out of 7075 stock. I bet you don't find many, if any at all.

$200ish
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3h-ambi/
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3s-ambi/
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3s/
http://megaarms.com/ar-15/lower-receivers/billet-lowers/gtr-3h/

$129
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Spartan_15_Enhanced_Billet_Lower_Receiver_p/jb-spartan15.htm

$250
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Seekins_Precision_SP223_AR15_Lower_Gen_2_w_Ambi_p/skn-sp223lower-gen2.htm

$200
http://www.rainierarms.com/cmt-tact-gen-2-uhp-15-billet-lower-receiver

$150
http://www.rainierarms.com/eds-tactical-armory-minutemen-billet-ar15-lower-receiver-lds

$250
http://www.rainierarms.com/lancer-systems-l15-lower-competition

$200
http://www.rainierarms.com/northtech-defense-ar15-billet-lower-receiver

$225
http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-ultramatch-billet-ambi-lower-receiver

$280
http://www.rainierarms.com/san-tan-tactical-stt-15-ambi-lower-receiver-no-logo-45-safety

$200
http://www.riflegear.com/p-2002-jd-machine-tech-ar15-billet-lower-receiver.aspx



I'm having a hard time finding a billet lower that isn't 7075.

Pwned...

MontClaire
03-10-2015, 10:48 AM
This is Gen 1-2. Look at the price of Gen 4;)

JackRydden224
03-10-2015, 10:49 AM
I'd like to know how many of you have actually cracked a lower before...

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 10:52 AM
I'd like to know how many of you have actually cracked a lower before...

No, but any time billet lowers are mentioned it's mandatory that someone posts that forged lowers are stronger.

Zartan
03-10-2015, 11:05 AM
CNC mills and their blades endmills will last longer with the 6061 vs 7075 so manufacturers use the 6061

Maybe 30yrs ago on the Bridgeport, but I hog a lot of both and it all depends on the cutting strategy and conditions.

Mitch
03-10-2015, 11:26 AM
No, but any time billet lowers are mentioned it's mandatory that someone posts that forged lowers are stronger.

I think there's a law to that effect . . .

Predator
03-10-2015, 1:05 PM
Check the history of POF yourself and go from there. ;)

You are mistaken sir.

Copied from an email between me and them to clear just this sort of false statement.

"Patriot Ordnance Factory started right here in Glendale, AZ and has never been or plans to be a Pakastani based company, no offense to Pakastanni Ordnance Factory. The Desomma Family moved from Brooklyn, NY to Phoenix, AZ around the late 70s. Frank Desomma started in the areospace industry and was sitting in his garage one night looking at a Fal and an AR 15, and the POF Piston AR design was born. POF-USA takes pride in American Made Products, Manufactured in the USA, as well as materials purchased from American mills and mines. You are correct in that both companies have similar accronyms for thier company names. The only association between the two companies would have been a purchase order or two for HK parts, However we also purchase from Rock Creek as well and I wouldn't consider them the same company. Hope this clarified your questions sorry for being overinformative, but if your in an arguement you need to have your guns loaded, Have a good one ."

Patriot Ordnance Factory started right here in Glendale, AZ and has never been or plans to be a Pakastani based company

Salt Works Rifles LLC.
03-10-2015, 2:10 PM
Man these threads.
All billet means is a chunk of metal, or machined from billet. In the Salt Works Pictures above, the pallets are stacked with 7075 billets.

No CGer is going to use a 6061 or 7075 lower to the point of breaking, unless they knock the trigger guard ear off during assembly :)

Speaking of Salt Works, what kind of machines are you running these on? HMC and pallet stacker I assume?

Primarily Mazak and Mori, but yes we do have some small Haas equipment.

tanks
03-10-2015, 3:11 PM
This is Gen 1-2. Look at the price of Gen 4;)

You know where one can source a Gen 4 POF lower?

tonyxcom
03-10-2015, 3:15 PM
Pwned...

Thanks. I spent a lot of time looking up all those links. :)

Ashick
03-10-2015, 4:19 PM
Thanks. I spent a lot of time looking up all those links. :)

I only know a couple of places off the top of my head that make billet 6061 lowers, Fealty and Sun Devil. Of course they are both local. Majority billet lowers I've seen are 7075.