PDA

View Full Version : Anyone Ever Flown with Saiga/OLL from Sacramento International or John Wayne Airport?


GundamCL
06-03-2008, 10:01 PM
As the title says, has anyone ever flown with a Saiga or OLL rifle from/to Sacramento International Airport or from/to John Wayne (Orange County) Airport?

I will be flying with Southwest Airlines.
From what I've gathered the process is:
-Use a sturdy, locked Case
-Declare firearm at the counter when getting ticket
-Keep all keys with myself
-Keep ammo in original boxes and only 11lbs. are allowed

Anyone have any helpful tips on flying with a firearm? :)

tazmanian devil dog
06-03-2008, 10:12 PM
No, But I have flown out of Oakland International Airport with my OLL and have had ZERO problems. They really don't give a rip what you check in as long as you follow the guidelines set forth by TSA and Southwest Airlines. You should be fine. If it worked for me in Oaktown, you should have no problems in Sac.

tazmanian devil dog
06-03-2008, 10:13 PM
Ooops I forgot. Welcome to Calguns. Enjoy!!

Synergy
06-03-2008, 10:17 PM
Doesn't matter what gun is in the case, they usually don't ask to see it and its against federal regulation for them to take the key to your case, if you are not present.

Know your laws, before hand. I will try and find you some links. I flew from PHX to LAX and my 1911 was in a Pelican Case. I wouldn't use anything less for shipping. Its bombproof (almost) and baggage handlers are worse than UPS for damaging stuff.

Borrowed from THR

Having traveled a number of times, here's how I go at it:

1. Put the unloaded weapon(s) in a lockable hard-sided case with locks only you have the keys to open. TSA locks are not allowed.
2. Check the airline(s) you are flying on:
* Determine if the ammo MUST be in boxes OR can fly in loaded magazines.
* If loaded magazines are permitted, make sure the pouches fully cover the magazines.
* The round from the pipe(s) must be in a box, not loose.
3. Secure and protect magazines and ammunition boxes from possible damage.
4. Put the lockable hard-sided case with the weapon and the ammo/magazines into a cheap, non-descript bag - with clear labeling outside and inside - for checking in. The labeling should be limited to:
* Your Name
* Your Cell Phone - if you have one, or your home phone if you do not
* Your personal email address - if you have one
* NO ADDRESSES, JOB TITLES, ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD BE INDICATED
5. Other stuff - like shampoo, mouthwash, toothpaste, etc, could be in this checked bag also.
6. Have the rules for the airline in hand when you check this non-descript bag at the airport.
7. Make sure you have the keys to the lockable hard-sided case with you and you alone (Per Federal Regulations § 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals - http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...2.10.6&idno=49) at all times. You will have to open the lockable hard-side case
* to demonstrate to the airline that the weapon(s) are not loaded at check in
* if the TSA wants to see.
8. Have the serial number(s) and descriptions of your weapons on you, so if they "disappear" you can report the loss/theft to the:
* airline
* FAA Regional Office
* ATF Regional Office
immediately.

Other things to consider:

1. Check www.handgunlaw.us to determine:
* If you can possess the weapon at all your stops.
* Where and how you can carry at all your stops.
* What are the deadly force rules in each state you are visiting.
2. Have a copy of the Don Young Transportation Letter on hand - http://www.anjrpc.org/DefendingYourR...s%20letter.pdf. This covers changing modes of travel - car to plane to car - in a single journey.

jb7706
06-03-2008, 10:54 PM
I have had desk agents at SMF tell me to leave my case unlocked until TSA screens it. DO NOT carry your unlocked case anywhere in the airport. Lock it before you leave the counter. Some desk agents get wiggy, stay calm and cool, if you get nervous it only makes them more wiggy.

I usually enclose a spare lock keyed the same as those on the outside along with a note. The note has my flight itinerary, my name, cell number that is on while changing planes and instructions to use the spare lock to secure my case.

The spare lock is there in case TSA decides to break the case open for inspection. Your gun cannot be loaded onto the aircraft unlocked, no matter who unlocked it. I don't want my gun sitting in a layover airport baggage area waiting for Joe Loser to help himself. I have never been inspected after declaring at the counter, but why risk it?

GundamCL
06-04-2008, 9:39 AM
Thanks guys for all the good info!! :)

I feel better now about flying with firearms now haha.

Spyder
06-04-2008, 10:27 AM
When you fly, look for the TSA guy that is seven foot tall. That'll be me. Say hello when you come through! I'll be up at the checkpoint at A terminal.

When are you flying out?

Forever-A-Soldier
06-04-2008, 12:01 PM
#1. Declare your UNLOADED firearm at the ticket counter.
#2. Ensure it is in a good lockable case.
#3. Ensure all ammo is in an original ammo box/container. Loose ammo will get the gun case searched.
#4. Use a TSA lock. If you don't, and it is locked, they will cut the lock off to search your case. If your case is self-locking only, they will break open the case or hold the gun case from flying.
#5. Put your orange firearms declaration INSIDE the case. Putting on the outside simply says "steal me." TSA only requires you DECLARE the firearm and have the orange card with the gun case (not on the outside.)

Unless you have something else in the case that looks iffy, it should have no problems.

Good luck.

F.A.S. Out

thedonger
06-04-2008, 12:16 PM
#4. Use a TSA lock. If you don't, and it is locked, they will cut the lock off to search your case. If your case is self-locking only, they will break open the case or hold the gun case from flying.

I think is is incorrect. Do no use a TSA lock! TSA will inspect the cast at check-in and should not need to check it again. I do like the idea of including a 2nd lock inside the case in case they need to re-secure at some point.

The whole point of the lock is that you are the only one who can open the case.

GundamCL
06-04-2008, 3:16 PM
When you fly, look for the TSA guy that is seven foot tall. That'll be me. Say hello when you come through! I'll be up at the checkpoint at A terminal.

When are you flying out?

Don't know the exact date I will be flying out (haven't bought tickets yet) but it might be around June 19th-23rd.

You work at Sac International?

Forever-A-Soldier
06-05-2008, 3:31 AM
I think is is incorrect. Do no use a TSA lock! TSA will inspect the cast at check-in and should not need to check it again. I do like the idea of including a 2nd lock inside the case in case they need to re-secure at some point.

The whole point of the lock is that you are the only one who can open the case.

Not necessarily true... ask me how I know! ;) If your checked luggage is screened beyond the ticket counter, you'll need that TSA lock. If they screen outside where passengers first arrive in the terminal (such as at Ontario) you'll be able to lock or unlock for the TSA screeners most likely.

F.A.S. Out

thedonger
06-05-2008, 8:58 AM
Not necessarily true... ask me how I know! ;) If your checked luggage is screened beyond the ticket counter, you'll need that TSA lock. If they screen outside where passengers first arrive in the terminal (such as at Ontario) you'll be able to lock or unlock for the TSA screeners most likely.

F.A.S. Out

True but...

Its my understanding that firearms can only be search in your presence. All the times I have flown with them they have always had a TSA employee check the case BEFORE it is sent away, while I was present.

But that is just my experience (8 - 10 flights from 4 diff. airports)

The one time I found it funny was in SLC when they did wipe tests on my case. I chuckle and tell the TSA guy "you do know its a gun case right?"

He was very nice and explained that its not that kind of chemical they are testing for etc.. But it still struck me as funny.

NiteQwill
06-05-2008, 9:51 AM
Not necessarily true... ask me how I know! ;) If your checked luggage is screened beyond the ticket counter, you'll need that TSA lock. If they screen outside where passengers first arrive in the terminal (such as at Ontario) you'll be able to lock or unlock for the TSA screeners most likely.

F.A.S. Out

They cannot search the case without you present. It's a big NO-NO. Don't ever put a TSA lock on your gun case! You're asking for trouble or for the weapons to be stolen. The only person with access to your firearm(s) should be YOU. The TSA lock can be place on the outside luggage if your case is within.

If you have any doubts, call TSA or the airlines directly.

Fate
06-05-2008, 9:57 AM
Always wondered if combination locks were ok. I have a small Sentry "pocket safe" with an built-in combination lock that seems to meet all other TSA requirements (hardsided, etc). No key at all.

Davidwhitewolf
06-05-2008, 3:22 PM
I've flown out of both SFO and OAK with three-digit combo-locked cases (the cheap shiny "Guide Gear" brand from Sportsmans Guide) with no problems.

jb7706
06-05-2008, 4:39 PM
They cannot search the case without you present. It's a big NO-NO. Don't ever put a TSA lock on your gun case! You're asking for trouble or for the weapons to be stolen. The only person with access to your firearm(s) should be YOU. The TSA lock can be place on the outside luggage if your case is within.

If you have any doubts, call TSA or the airlines directly.

http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/guns.html (the chosen carrier of the OP) states: "Only the Customer checking the luggage should retain the key or combination to the lock. No exceptions will be made."

Sounds like that means no TSA lock to me.

CSDGuy
06-05-2008, 5:24 PM
Putting a TSA Lock on a Firearms container is exactly like allowing (potentially) hundreds or thousands of people (who may or may not have an authorized TSA key) access to your firearm. There is only ONE person who retains the key or combo to that lock that secures that firearm - that person is YOU.

uscbigdawg
06-06-2008, 3:27 AM
So...I've flown SWA at least 100 times out of SMF, including connecting to Europe and Asia for matches both pistol and 3-Gun (yeah...rifle, pistol and shotgun in the same case). I love them and they are THE most gun friendly airline.

1 - Declare you have an unloaded firearm
2 - They will ask to see it and that it's unloaded. SWA employees have been trained to know where to look. Be polite and cordial and it will go VERY fast.
3 - Sign your tag and throw it in the case.
4 - Lock the case. When TSA wants to do an additional check, not a big deal, just talk to your TSA agent and let him know that you would like to watch the process. It's not a problem.
5 - Ensure your case is secure and have a nice day.

I recommend a key lock as if they want your keys to unlock it, it's obviously better than giving them a combo. Second, DO NOT use a TSA lock. You are not required to and after they do the check, there won't be a problem.

As for ammo, they DO NOT need to be in factory boxes. I haven't bought factory ammo in about 8 years. Ammo boxes are fine...yeah...I reload everything.

If you have any other questions, PM me. The only rub with ammo is the weight, but if you're not taking a lot, no problem.

Rich

thedonger
06-06-2008, 8:46 AM
Not necessarily true... ask me how I know! ;)

F.A.S. Out

Ok. How do you know?

NiteQwill
06-06-2008, 10:51 AM
Ok. How do you know?

He doesn't. Don't fuel the fire. Obviously, s/he is attempting to spread misinformation and have someone both 1) go to jail and 2) lose their [airport] job.

Forever-A-Soldier
06-06-2008, 3:35 PM
They cannot search the case without you present. It's a big NO-NO. Don't ever put a TSA lock on your gun case! You're asking for trouble or for the weapons to be stolen. The only person with access to your firearm(s) should be YOU. The TSA lock can be place on the outside luggage if your case is within.

If you have any doubts, call TSA or the airlines directly.

Actually they CAN search the case, but not handle the firearm. If TSA needs to search your case based on their criteria (which I can't divulge sorry to say), THEY will remove/cut/etc any locks necessary or the case doesn't go on the plane. Now, some airports they might search there at the counter, some may not. It's up to the airline to determine the safety of the weapon. But if your case has other issues, such as loose ammo, TSA will have issue with that.

BTW, if you think any "standard lock" is an issue, it's not. They get cut all the time. You use a TSA lock 'cause if they need to search it, they can open it and relock it without destroying the lock.

TSA's job is to screen 100% of all luggage and 99% of it is screened through large X-ray machines you sometimes see in the front areas of the airport and sometimes they are in the "back" away from the airline counters. If they are in the back, you may well have your personal lock cut to screen the gun case. Then you have an unlocked gun case (with a gun inside) flying to it's destination. You don't get to go "in the back" when they need to screen your luggage (though, if time permits they might send the case back to the airline counter to have you unlock it and then screen it in the back again. YMMV)

F.A.S. Out
(Now w/TSA)

Forever-A-Soldier
06-06-2008, 3:37 PM
Ok. How do you know?

Because I work for them. But if you want to go on your own information or others who dont' work for TSA, by all means. Doesn't matter to me, I'm just trying to be helpful.

F.A.S. Out

jb7706
06-06-2008, 3:50 PM
Straight from e-CFR at http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ca8e98bee9f342fd78d92cbedeffaf98&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.9&idno=49#49:9.1.3.5.9.2.10.6:


(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is unloaded;

(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

I am not an attorney, nor do I work for TSA, but that final statement seems to indicate to me that a TSA lock may not be legal. By definition if it is a TSA lock then I am not the only person with the key.

Yes TSA cuts locks all the time, and they may cut the lock on a gun case. That is why I always have an unlocked spare lock inside the case.

uscbigdawg
06-06-2008, 5:57 PM
FAS - That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Sorry, but that's the case. You want to search my private property without me being present. Pretty sure the 4th Amendment is still in place (what's left of it anyways). Let's see...I'm in the airport, I'm boarding the flight, I've declared that I've got guns and you're going to violate my civil rights. TSA's authority is cursory and "fluffy" at best. The airlines still own that plane and they still dictate what goes on and what doesn't.

As for the magical "back room". Been in it to ensure my rights weren't violated. The reason why people have bad experiences with TSA is because TSA steps outside of its left and right. "Loose ammo in the case..." is already a violation since ammunition and the firearm are to be packed seperately per...the airline's reg's.

Rich

Forever-A-Soldier
06-06-2008, 7:30 PM
Ok, this will be my final comment on this. Your 4th amendment rights are not violated, since when you submit baggage to the airline, and TSA is responsible for screening it, it is "implied consent" to search. We go through people's bags ALL THE TIME, as that is our job. You can turn away from the checkpoint, prior to entering, but as soon as you turn your luggage over to the airlines or enter the checkpoint, you are subject to search if you agree with it or not.

Since I work for TSA, and I'm trying to be helpful, I'm trying to give you my perspective from the inside to help a fellow gun owner out. Reading jb7706's post, I'll go with his citing of info in regards to locking a "gun only" case. But, again, it still stands that any piece of luggage (with a gun, locked or whatever) is subject to search if applicable based on TSA regulations.

So, with all due respect, unless you work for TSA, or you have accesses to the SSI on our procedures, you really don't know what TSA protocol is regarding searches of checked luggage. I'd love to be more specific, hell I'd love to quote you TSA regulations by page number and paragraph, but most of it can not be specifically sited for security reasons.

F.A.S. Out

SJgunguy24
06-06-2008, 7:52 PM
I flew out of San Jose to San Diego,going down nothing no problems. Coming back home T.S.A. made me wait an hour before they would give me my boarding pass. They took the key and checked it (for what I have no clue) but what pissed me off was they had a cop watch me and they held my I.D. and boarding pass and wouldn't let me go to the bathroom,get water any thing. It felt like I was being detained.

Spyder
06-06-2008, 10:51 PM
Yea, if you fly out of SMF through Southwest, you'll see me. Any flights leaving terminal A, I'll be up there with the blue gloves on. :D

Don't know the exact date I will be flying out (haven't bought tickets yet) but it might be around June 19th-23rd.

You work at Sac International?

Harrison_Bergeron
06-06-2008, 11:36 PM
:ban: for :fud:

Ok, this will be my final comment on this. Your 4th amendment rights are not violated, since when you submit baggage to the airline, and TSA is responsible for screening it, it is "implied consent" to search. We go through people's bags ALL THE TIME, as that is our job. You can turn away from the checkpoint, prior to entering, but as soon as you turn your luggage over to the airlines or enter the checkpoint, you are subject to search if you agree with it or not.

Since I work for TSA, and I'm trying to be helpful, I'm trying to give you my perspective from the inside to help a fellow gun owner out. Reading jb7706's post, I'll go with his citing of info in regards to locking a "gun only" case. But, again, it still stands that any piece of luggage (with a gun, locked or whatever) is subject to search if applicable based on TSA regulations.

So, with all due respect, unless you work for TSA, or you have accesses to the SSI on our procedures, you really don't know what TSA protocol is regarding searches of checked luggage. I'd love to be more specific, hell I'd love to quote you TSA regulations by page number and paragraph, but most of it can not be specifically sited for security reasons.

F.A.S. Out

NiteQwill
06-07-2008, 12:24 AM
:ban: for :fud:

I agree. This person is going to land someone in jail or worse. Someone either needs to clean up this thread or lock-it.

uscbigdawg
06-07-2008, 1:12 AM
I still call BS...especially anyone that signs with the obligatory, "out".

Search my bags without being present and I'll have your job. Period. Implied consent, eh? New one. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about and AGAIN are why folks have bad experiences with TSA. Fact is that since 9/11 TSA has probably stolen more guns through baggage than they've helped anything.

I personally don't believe you work for TSA and were probably never in the Army.

Rich

jb7706
06-07-2008, 8:05 AM
I still call BS...especially anyone that signs with the obligatory, "out".

Search my bags without being present and I'll have your job. Period. Implied consent, eh? New one. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about and AGAIN are why folks have bad experiences with TSA. Fact is that since 9/11 TSA has probably stolen more guns through baggage than they've helped anything.

I personally don't believe you work for TSA and were probably never in the Army.

Rich
I have retruned from trips to find a preprinted notice placed inside my luggage stating that TSA had searched it. I was not packing iron that trip, but I did have some circuit boards that are commonly installed in servers. Guess they like to see that a RAID card is just a RAID card. Maybe the fact that some RAID cards have batteries installed on them makes them look twice. Whoe bag was tossed and repacked, but at least everything I had packed was still there.

Whatever, they can and do open bags without the owner present. Legal or not, right or not like it or not it happens. Just make sure that if/when your gun bag is searched that you up your odds of it making its way back to your hands.

uscbigdawg
06-07-2008, 11:22 AM
I agree that it happens. I'll say this. What's to keep someone from reporting that something wasn't missing when they see the same note at their destination?

With that person present for the inspection, they are probably being scanned by a camera, or at the least maybe should. This protects the rights of the individuals and protects TSA from FURTHER accusations (and convictions) of sticky fingers.

Rich