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what2be
06-01-2008, 3:36 PM
I see someone recently asked about a 4 position selector switch, and it prompted me to ask this question...

What changed exactly and WHY did they change the lower recievers on ar's after 1986? I know waaayy back when around the mid 80's I had a hbar and you could open up any shotgun news and buy these drop in auto sears to convert your ar. (you still needed the bolt, trigger, selecter,etc of course)
Did they change the lowers to prohibit these kits from working or was there another reason? What changed with the lowers exactly? Did they open the reciever up or did they add more metal to the reciever?

I was in the gun store yesterday in vegas and heard the clerk talking to a customer about how all recievers after 1986 cannot be converted to full auto, even if you had the class III permit.

Hope this question is okay to ask,im just curious is all.

bohoki
06-01-2008, 3:51 PM
I see someone recently asked about a 4 position selector switch, and it prompted me to ask this question...

What changed exactly and WHY did they change the lower recievers on ar's after 1986? I know waaayy back when around the mid 80's I had a hbar and you could open up any shotgun news and buy these drop in auto sears to convert your ar. (you still needed the bolt, trigger, selecter,etc of course)
Did they change the lowers to prohibit these kits from working or was there another reason? What changed with the lowers exactly? Did they open the reciever up or did they add more metal to the reciever?

I was in the gun store yesterday in vegas and heard the clerk talking to a customer about how all recievers after 1986 cannot be converted to full auto, even if you had the class III permit.

Hope this question is okay to ask,im just curious is all.

you cannot "convert" anything

you can add a pre 86 registered auto sear that is the "machine gun"

so its kind of like you are putting a machine gun inside a semi auto rifle

it sounds and feels like a conversion but its not

ar15barrels
06-01-2008, 6:22 PM
What changed exactly and WHY did they change the lower recievers on ar's after 1986?

A federal law went into effect.
No NEW machineguns can be added to the civilian NFA registry after May of 1986.

what2be
06-01-2008, 8:36 PM
A federal law went into effect.
No NEW machineguns can be added to the civilian NFA registry after May of 1986.

So, im still confused. I understand what your saying. Nobody after may of 86 can modify their gun to a machine gun and register it, correct?

So if thats true, the guy at the gunstore was just full of crap then? There is no difference with the recievers?

If thats true, what stops people from getting a auto sear and parts kit and modifying their ar-15? (besides the law of course). Or are they restricted parts?

I would think that mfgs would make the reciever slightly different so people could NOT convert them. Is that impossible to do?

ar15barrels
06-01-2008, 9:26 PM
So, im still confused. I understand what your saying. Nobody after may of 86 can modify their gun to a machine gun and register it, correct?

So if thats true, the guy at the gunstore was just full of crap then? There is no difference with the recievers?

If thats true, what stops people from getting a auto sear and parts kit and modifying their ar-15? (besides the law of course). Or are they restricted parts?

I would think that mfgs would make the reciever slightly different so people could NOT convert them. Is that impossible to do?

Yes.
Yes, but some companies made voluntary (not legislated) changes to inhibit the installation of autosears.
Very little. You can buy the parts but it's illegal to install them.
Anything is possible when you have a milling machine.

duenor
06-01-2008, 9:35 PM
hell, you can make a machine gun out of sheet metal and a bunch of pop can tabs. what's stopping folks? other than the law, pretty much nothing.

well, maybe the price of ammo.

ar15 receivers are not "drop in" convertable to full auto. most receivers ARE made slightly different (like our FAL receivers) to discourage modification. this is more to protect users in the event of worn sears, etc, than to protect the manufacturer.

if you want to research a gun that really was easy to convert to FA, look at the open bolt guns.

what2be
06-01-2008, 10:27 PM
ar15 receivers are not "drop in" convertable to full auto. most receivers ARE made slightly different (like our FAL receivers) to discourage modification. this is more to protect users in the event of worn sears, etc, than to protect the manufacturer.


But that was my question. They USED to be drop in convertible. I have a bad memory, but I remember back in the mid 80's there was a TON of ads in shotgun news for drop in auto sears. I even remember they had books on how to make your own out of aluminum and add a roll pin and sear.
I was curious as to why the guy was saying you cant modify the new ones mfg after 86. I didnt know it was more of a law thing than a actual physical change to the reciever. thats what I was trying to figure out.
I guess it was a bit of both though, if you say some mfg try to protect themselves the way the mill the lower.

slick_711
06-01-2008, 11:00 PM
But that was my question. They USED to be drop in convertible. Most still are. I have a bad memory, but I remember back in the mid 80's there was a TON of ads in shotgun news for drop in auto sears. The ads are still there sometimes. I even remember they had books on how to make your own out of aluminum and add a roll pin and sear.
I was curious as to why the guy was saying you cant modify the new ones mfg after 86. He probably meant that it was no longer legal to do so. I didnt know it was more of a law thing than a actual physical change to the reciever. thats what I was trying to figure out.
I guess it was a bit of both though, if you say some mfg try to protect themselves the way the mill the lower. Some companies have added (or rather, remove less material in the milling process) a "shelf" or "block" that won't allow you to put M-16 FCG components or an auto-sear into the receiver. Many companies do not do this, but they still can't be legally converted.

Thoughts/clarification in red. Maybe it will help, but mostly already mentioned info.

NeoWeird
06-02-2008, 1:29 AM
Ok, let's cover just some key points.

Machine guns can no longer be added to the civilian registry. Period. If someone loses, destroys, exports, etc than it's gone forever. Bye bye. No more. Period.

Class 3 dealers are 100% legal to make and own machine guns. Doesn't matter when the gun was made. They usually DON'T do conversions because it's the same price, if not cheaper, to get the real deal straight from the manufacturer. Class 3 dealers use these as 'post 86' or 'dealer samples' with the intended purpose of use as samples to prospective buyers such as a LEO angency. If I remember right they have two machine guns per type of weapon for samples at any given time. They can make a million a year with proper permits and taxes paid as long as they never personally own more than two at a time. What the FFL was probably trying to say is that a Class 3 dealer can NOT make a new machine gun for a cilvian, period.

Drop in auto sears - or DIAS - are something completely different than auto sears. Auto sears fit into a milled out pocket in an M16 receiver and are held in place with a pin similar to the hammer and trigger. Back when converting guns to full auto was legal it was a headache for guys to get the extra pockets milled out of the AR and then get them reanodized, and then of course there is the problem if they are milled and drilled wrong or skewed. Well some genius fellow designed the DIAS as a solution. The DIAS is a device that is held into an AR using the rear lug of the upper receiver. It allowed the owner to use M16 parts and an unmodified AR-15 receiver to shoot select fire. Since the receiver was not modified it did not need to be registered with the NFA which was another plus. That was fine at first, until later when the ATF ruled that the DIAS was a machine gun and no more could be made without being registered. Those already made were grandfathered in, which is why you see ads in Shotgun news (but be careful as most of these are potentially post ban made parts and could be an easy felony conviction). The DIAS also requires you to use M16 parts. This is a problem as once the DIAS is removed you have now illegally manufactured a machine gun by having the M16 parts in an AR-15 receiver. That is wehre the Lightning Link - or LL - came from. I believe it was Max Atchisson who designed it originally and it is a device that converts an AR-15 to full auto without the use of M16 parts. These were later banned as well. Now they are refered to as rDIAS and rLL (or registered DIAS and LL respectfully). They are not legal to purchase without paying the $200 tax stamp and transfer fees.

As for the fit of these items, they can still be used in most AR receivers today. Some slightly modifications to receivers have been made, but all that must be done is the receiver either milled to original spec or the device modified to fit the new standard. To give you an idea, my Stag only differs from the old guns by having a small side wall shelf that is about .020" narrower than the older guns. As said, anything is possible, especially with a mill.

Keep in mind that if you have to ask questions, then it's illegal for you to convert a gun to full auto as anyone who can will know how and why they can.

It's all a moot point anyways as machine gun tranfers are illegal in California anyways, even when registered with the NFA.

HendersonDefense
06-02-2008, 4:48 PM
Ok, let's cover just some key points.

Class 3 dealers are 100% legal to make and own machine guns. Doesn't matter when the gun was made. .

Just a slight clarification. Only 07 FFL and 10 FFL/02 SOT's can manufacture Post Sample machineguns. Class 3 Dealers need a letter from a LE/MIL in order to obtain a Post Sample machinegun.

Henderson Defense Industries

Army
06-02-2008, 7:07 PM
Colt did not mill out the receiver in the area, where a full auto sear...or drop in sear...could be installed. I believe that's what you are thinking of. Most other receiver makers did not, and do not, copy this Colt modification.

The 4 position selector is a Navy modification.

mooster
06-02-2008, 9:56 PM
\If I remember right they have two machine guns per type of weapon for samples at any given time. They can make a million a year with proper permits and taxes paid as long as they never personally own more than two at a time.
Correct. You can't order more than 2 MGs of the same type unless you have LEO or .mil contract in hand stating you are authorized to do so.

It's all a moot point anyways as machine gun tranfers are illegal in California anyways, even when registered with the NFA.
I don't recall this one. Can you direct me to further info?

NeoWeird
06-03-2008, 6:58 PM
I don't recall this one. Can you direct me to further info?

What I meant was it's illegal to transfer them to civilians. Last I heard the number of civilian permits in California could be counted on your hands. Now there are plenty of legally owned machine guns that were registered with their owners, and there are many dealers and LEOs who have them, but from what I have heard it now takes near close an act of God for a civilian to get one in this state.