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View Full Version : Any F Class shooters here on Calguns? Know any that I can get in contact with?


Solidsnake87
05-31-2008, 3:15 PM
Hey fellas!

The other day I met up with a fellow calgunner who was kind enough to invite me over to his place for a crash course on reloading for precision. It turns out he is quite an accomplished NRA high power shooter. Throughout the course of the evening he continuously asked the question "Well what are you trying to do with your rifle?" I told him I was interested in shooting out to 500 yards with an AR-15. I just want to learn to make distanced shots. He constantly replied "Why?" "Why stop there?" I told him I had never entertained the idea of shooting further than that with an AR. To make a long story short, he put the idea in my head that F-class shooting is the kind of thing for me. The more I've looked into it, the more appealing it really is to me.

I'm in the process of preparing my rifle for F-class. He went over my rifle and made lots of comments. He went right to the point and put a lot of myths to rest. I REALLY appreciated getting non-sugar-coated info about my rifle for long range! I really do mean that Lane! You were a great help! :):D He gave me a list of reloading equipment to get and a list of mods to do to my rifle to prepare. I've done all but one mod--change the barrel to a match grade 1:8 .223 barrel that can stabilize the 80 grain bullets for 1000 yard shots. I'm splitting the cost of the reloading equipment ($2k :() with a buddy who is going to do F-Class with me.

I was basically wondering if there were any F-Class shooters on the forums that would be interested in getting together for some 1-on-1 training. I'd like to have some practice before hitting any matches. Any help is appreciated!

Thanks a lot guys!

RobT2K
05-31-2008, 3:20 PM
Why is the reloading equipment going to cost 2K? I've been looking at getting started reloading, and a moderate setup is only around $350 not including consumables.

apbrian112
05-31-2008, 3:25 PM
reloading set-ups are like firearms... they vary widely in price. compare a RIA 1911 for $500 out the door to a $2500 custom 1911, they both shoot 45 ACP rounds at the target, but i guarantee that the $2500 1911 will allow you to hit the target faster and more accurately.
same thing with the reloading set-up.

Solidsnake87
05-31-2008, 3:37 PM
I wanted to get what Lane thought was the best equipment to get my rifle to max potential at 1000 yards. Since Lane is a very experience high power competitor, I trust his judgement. He had a couple thousand bucks worth of what he calls "crap" he does not use. He wished that somebody showed him the good stuff before he went into reloading. A simple setup will cost around $350 but there are some pieces of equipment out there that do much better jobs, produce finer accuracy, and produce the end product with less prep time. Also, I learned that basic kits DO NOT have all of the equipment that a long range shooter would want.

Here is my list of equipment, if you are interested. Lets not Get this thread off topic though! Please stick to the topic of getting me some F-Class help. lol.

-Redding big boss II reloading press (or RCBS rockchucker II--pretty much the same thing)
-Some Mitutoyo calipers
-Giraude brass trimmer
-Lyman 2500 Pro-magnum tumbler
-Walnut shell for the tumbler--purchase at a feed store for dirt cheap
-Sinclair flash hole deburring tool
-Primer pocket uniformer
-Sierra complete 5th edition reloading manual-Lane was very explicit that this is the only manual a shooter really needs. He does not even use any of his others anymore since the Sierra is so good.
-CED M2 chronograph
-Redding BR-30 powder dispenser+bench stand
-Satern powder funnel
-Redding .223 Remington Dies #36111 type 'S' with competition seater
----Polish the expander on the dies
-Some shell holders
-Neck bushings -.242, .243, .244, .241
-primer tray
-RCBS primer seating hand tool
-Kinetic bullet puller
-some powder pans
-loading box/tray
-MTM ammo boxes
-Denver Instrument scale-MXX 123
-Sinclair Bullet comparator body
-Sinclair Bullet comparator Inserts
-Redding Case lube pad kit + extra lube

I could easily cut some costs in certain places ans still get precision--even he mentioned this. He said that this is what he uses and it allows him to take his .223s and .308s to 1000 yards for competition very nicely. He only emphasized this list for a person thats planning to do a lot for shooting and demands precision for competition.

So, once again, any F classers out there?

trinydex
05-31-2008, 4:53 PM
hmm thanks for the list... more stuff to research.

Solidsnake87
05-31-2008, 5:14 PM
No problem.

So any F classers?

Solidsnake87
05-31-2008, 5:51 PM
I think I'll drop by the Sac valley shooting center tomorrow with my rifle and ask about F class. They seem to be the godly location for F class.

Fjold
05-31-2008, 8:30 PM
Can't help with the F class shooting but may I comment on your reloading eqipment?

That is definately top class stuff and I use some of the same equipment.

Concerning the Redding S type bushing dies. One thing that I noticed (and a lot of other people have also) during resizing is that the neck has been sized down to the exact exterior dimension that you want it to be at and when the decapping/expander plug is pulled back through the neck it changes that dimension. This is because when the expander plug is being used the neck is no longer supported by the bushing.

What a lot of people do is remove the entire decapping pin from the sizing die. I bought a universal decapping die that has a straight shaft and all it does is push out the old primer. Then I run the case through my bushing die and it sizes it down to exactly the neck diameter that I want.

The other benefit to this is that running with no expander plug gets me less differences in neck concentricity. Sometimes the expander plug pulls unevenly on the neck due to slight differences in the brass hardness and you can see some runout issues because of the expander plug drag.

Solidsnake87
05-31-2008, 8:58 PM
What is runout? I've heard the term before and it was never mentioned during my reloading session.

SixthChameleon
05-31-2008, 9:14 PM
What is runout? I've heard the term before and it was never mentioned during my reloading session.

Runout is a measure of the roundness of a cylindrical section. A runout tolerance is defined by two ideal concentric circles, for which any profile that lies between them is acceptable. It only takes into consideration the roundness of a given cross section. On the other hand cylindricity is defined by two concentric ideal cylinders. The point being, that an object could satisfy a runout tolerance, but not a cylindricity tolerance if it's very round at any given section, but overall, not straight.

ocabj
05-31-2008, 9:16 PM
If you're going to get a new barrel to shoot heavy, I think you'll be more confident in a 1:7". 1:8" is sufficient for 80s, but I've always shot 1:7".

Also, get familiar with Berger bullets. You'll most likely be shooting the Berger 80gr VLD (or the Berger 82gr BT). You can try the 90s, but there hasn't been much positive word of mouth on the 90s. But I think that's due in part because the only people attempting to use the 90s are service rifle shooters, and I don't think you can move the 90s fast enough out of a 20" SR barrel to take advantage of the 90gr VLD BC. *But*, if you plan on shooting a longer length AR barrel like a 26", you can get a barrel with a modified gas port and use the VV 'high energy' powders, specifically N540, which will allow you to reach higher MV with equal pressures to the normal VV powders.

Pthfndr
05-31-2008, 9:16 PM
Come out to the 1000 yard range at Sac Valley tomorrow morning. We're doing our tactical long range match, but several of us also shoot F class. We start at 8, but if you get there after that just drive to the 1000 yard firing line and wait for us to get back there (leave any firearms in your vehicle please).

I'll be ROing the line for the first relay.

We usually finish up around 12 - 12:30 and then meet back at the pole barn below the 1K line for match results and BBQ. You could also come talk to us then.

Lane is THE MAN when it comes to long range shooting. If he tells you something, you listen to him.

Rob Thomas

Fjold
05-31-2008, 9:24 PM
When you spin the cartridge case, ideally it would be perfectly round. The neck should spin with no wobble perfectly centered to the case body. If the neck is crooked it will wobble and the amount of wobble is the runout. Ideally the neck is perfectly centered and holds the bullet in perfect alignment to the bore.

Typically factory rifles have chambers that are larger than ideal to make sure that every brand of factory ammunition fits them without problems. The problem then is that a lot of ammuntion lays in the bottom of these large chambers and the bullet is not centered in the bore so that when fired the bullet enters the leade at an angle.

When I had my 6.5x284 built I had the chamber body cut to the minimum SAAMI dimension and the neck cut .004" under the nominal dimension at .296". I set my S type bushing dies to give me a loaded neck diameter of .293" which gives me .0015" (on each side) clearance to release the bullet.

Solidsnake87
05-31-2008, 10:35 PM
I was going to drop by the range at 8:00. I'd love to shoot but I don't have the loading equipment and necessary barrel yet. I don't want to pay for overpriced match ammo either. lol. If somebody wants to load up some ammo for a 1:9 barrel, I'd love to shoot at sac valley tomorrow and get some instruction if possible. I'd be willing to pay for the ammo! I'll definitely be there though! I want to meet some F class shooters and learn how to better set up my AR for extended range shooting.

If you're going to get a new barrel to shoot heavy, I think you'll be more confident in a 1:7". 1:8" is sufficient for 80s, but I've always shot 1:7".

The 1:7 sounds like a dream come true, but after talking to enough High power guys the 1:8 seems superior. The reason 1:7 is not "liked" as much is because it wears down faster. I might have white oak install a Krieger 1:7.7 but it comes down to cost. If the WOA match 26" barrel system with wylde chamber and 1:8 twist is adequate to get me to where I need to go, then let me know. I'm sending my upper into WOA next week for mods.

Ahhnother8
06-01-2008, 10:25 PM
Rob,

Thanks for the kind words. Just trying to save some people time and money through this process.


All,

Since this has already evolved into a reloading thread, I will continue along the same vein.

Yes, the list of items is expensive, but it is pretty much all inclusive. Shooting at 1000 yards places a lot of demands on equipment and ammunition. One MOA rifles are not sufficient. In fact, I am looking for 1/4 MOA or BETTER. That is not to say that one MOA will not work, but it would be very disappointing on target. The only item on "the list" that is a luxury item is the Giraud trimmer. But I would never be without one, after being spoiled by it. After rereading "the list" it would appear that it has been upgraded from what I use. No problem with that. You get what you pay for in this game, and by starting with the best, no upgrading is necessary. To each his own... :D

Regarding expander balls...a lot of successful shooters who use bushing dies do not use them. The problem I see with this is as follows: The bushing makes the exterior of the brass nice and round. But it pushes any variations in neck wall thickness to the inside, which holds the bullet (neck tension). So unless the brass is neck turned, the neck tension WILL vary around the circumference of the bullet. Does it matter? Don't know. I just like to feel that expander coming back up through the neck. I polish it to a chrome-like finish, so it does not "drag". For the bolt-gun, light neck tension. For the AR probably .002-.003 neck tension. And yes, you can feel the difference, and if one feels too loose or too tight, time to toss that piece of brass. It just seems wrong to leave the outside of the neck nice and round and the inside with all the error. I just prefer to make the inside nice and round and push all the error to the outside. When fired, the chamber will make the outside round again for you.

Regarding runout (case and bullet)...some people measure it, and there is even a tool to "straighten" the bullet. With good tools and loading practices, it is not a concern. Even a couple of thousandths of runout does not seem to matter. This is probably even more true in an AR. Don't know for sure if it matters, but I do not even bother thinking about it anymore.

Regarding barrels...a 1:8 will be very marginal at 1000 yards, unless pushed HARD. It is much easier to just put on a 1:7 and call it good. Even the 1:7.7 Krieger really isn't enough. At AR velocities, there is no such thing as over stabilized. Never heard of a bullet not making it to the target. John at White Oak or Frank at Compass Lake know their stuff. Either will lead you down the right path.

YMMV...

Lane

what2be
06-01-2008, 10:30 PM
I wanted to get what Lane thought was the best equipment to get my rifle to max potential at 1000 yards. Since Lane is a very experience high power competitor, I trust his judgement. He had a couple thousand bucks worth of what he calls "crap" he does not use. He wished that somebody showed him the good stuff before he went into reloading. A simple setup will cost around $350 but there are some pieces of equipment out there that do much better jobs, produce finer accuracy, and produce the end product with less prep time. Also, I learned that basic kits DO NOT have all of the equipment that a long range shooter would want.

Here is my list of equipment, if you are interested. Lets not Get this thread off topic though! Please stick to the topic of getting me some F-Class help. lol.

-Redding big boss II reloading press (or RCBS rockchucker II--pretty much the same thing)
-Some Mitutoyo calipers
-Giraude brass trimmer
-Lyman 2500 Pro-magnum tumbler
-Walnut shell for the tumbler--purchase at a feed store for dirt cheap
-Sinclair flash hole deburring tool
-Primer pocket uniformer
-Sierra complete 5th edition reloading manual-Lane was very explicit that this is the only manual a shooter really needs. He does not even use any of his others anymore since the Sierra is so good.
-CED M2 chronograph
-Redding BR-30 powder dispenser+bench stand
-Satern powder funnel
-Redding .223 Remington Dies #36111 type 'S' with competition seater
----Polish the expander on the dies
-Some shell holders
-Neck bushings -.242, .243, .244, .241
-primer tray
-RCBS primer seating hand tool
-Kinetic bullet puller
-some powder pans
-loading box/tray
-MTM ammo boxes
-Denver Instrument scale-MXX 123
-Sinclair Bullet comparator body
-Sinclair Bullet comparator Inserts
-Redding Case lube pad kit + extra lube

I could easily cut some costs in certain places ans still get precision--even he mentioned this. He said that this is what he uses and it allows him to take his .223s and .308s to 1000 yards for competition very nicely. He only emphasized this list for a person thats planning to do a lot for shooting and demands precision for competition.

So, once again, any F classers out there?

Is he located in sacramento? I go there quite a bit and would love to stop by and bend his ear about reloading. im trying to get into it and im lost. Im not concerned about cost, but I am concerned about getting the best equipment for what I want to do.

Solidsnake87
06-02-2008, 12:20 AM
lol. Send Ahhnother8 a PM. He's a very helpful guy. Yes, he's near sactown.

I went by the scavalley range today. I didn't run into any F classers but a lot of the tactical shooters were more than willing to help me out after their match today. Pretty cool and enthusiastic group of guys! Especially Vu Pham. They invited me to attend their group's practice sessions and matches. I'm definitely going to attend.

Ahhnother8
06-02-2008, 8:15 AM
Oh, nooooooooooo!!

We conventional sling/iron sight shooters consider shooting F-class as going over to the dark side. Going tactical is like...well, not even sure how to describe it. :eek: They do get to dress up in their cute little outfits though. :p

Pthfndr
06-02-2008, 8:42 AM
Oh, nooooooooooo!!

We conventional sling/iron sight shooters consider shooting F-class as going over to the dark side. Going tactical is like...well, not even sure how to describe it. :eek: They do get to dress up in their cute little outfits though. :p

LOL

Lane, the tactical guys (except me of course) say the same thing about the High Power guys! At least as one of the match directors I was able to get one course of fire in there where they can't use their rear support bags, and in some stages have to shoot from position without any front support either. Amazing how group sizes get really big when you take those things away.

Solidsnake87
06-02-2008, 12:52 PM
Yeah, those slings and jackets look pretty cute and cuddly too! :p

Mute
06-02-2008, 3:10 PM
Check out this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=97975

Mike Miller will be one of the U.S. F-T/R members shooting in England next year. I'm sure he can help you.