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View Full Version : 00 bucks and slugs are all I need?


ajl2121
05-31-2008, 2:21 AM
I have never shot a buckshot or a slug out of my mossberg 500 yet. Only birdshots. I am planning on stocking some 12 gauge ammo, and was wondering if 00 bucks and slugs are all I need for SHTF. I was thinking...

Bucks:
1. 12 Ga. Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pell. OO Buck

Slugs:
1. 12 Gauge Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil Hydra-Shok Slug
OR
2. 12g Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil TRUBALL Rifled Slug

Also, I'm planning on getting a semi-auto some time in the future. I would like this ammo to work in both my mossberg 500 and possibly a 930, 1100, or M4.

Oh, I only have the standard barrel...which I believe is referred to as a smooth bore barrel with no choke???

randy
05-31-2008, 4:51 AM
It should work in all of those mentioned but you won't know until you try it. If you are stocking up for SHTF ammo lo recoil is for sissys.

Lo recoil is all I use but I only have to hit steel plates. I don't worry about the Zombies.

dustoff31
05-31-2008, 6:38 AM
You might consider throwing in some #4 buck. At lot more shot per round, about 30 IIRC, and still fairly good sized holes.

Maton
05-31-2008, 6:59 AM
that's all u really need. Acutally all you REALLY need is 00buck, there is a way to make them into slugs....anyways, thats a far more advanced method. Take care-Ur friendly neighborhood firearms instructor.

DrjonesUSA
05-31-2008, 8:22 AM
00 Buck & slugs are the only suitable defense shotgun rounds, yes.

Before you go buy a bunch of shotshells, I'm gonna ask you why you think a shottie is your best SHTF weapon?

It has a very low capacity (max of 8 or 9 rounds compared to minimum of 20 for any magazine-fed rifle), very slow to reload compared to a mag-fed rifle, ammo is MUCH bulkier which means you cannot store or carry as much as you can rifle ammo, and shotguns will NOT penetrate body armor.

They are also less than ideal for defending against multiple enemies and have a very limited range compared to a rifle.

Frankly, I don't even think a shottie is a good everyday home defense weapon because it will not penetrate body armor & is not good for multiple enemies, let alone SHTF.

I strongly suggest you get a nice AR or .308 semi-auto rifle, learn to use it very well and stock up on either .223 or .308.

ViPER395
05-31-2008, 9:04 AM
Shotguns won't kill your neighbor's kid after going through 3 walls like a .308 or .223 would.

PorkLover
05-31-2008, 9:17 AM
I agree with Viper....nothing wrong with rifles...especially if you have a lot of land, but in an urban setting you gotta think about overpenetration...and not just the neighbors kids...but your own family as well, besides...I'd like to see an assailant with body armor get up after being hit with a slug!......or even 00or birdshot!....especially within 21 ft.......a whole lotta Hurt......

DrjonesUSA
05-31-2008, 9:30 AM
I agree with Viper....nothing wrong with rifles...especially if you have a lot of land, but in an urban setting you gotta think about overpenetration...and not just the neighbors kids...but your own family as well, besides...I'd like to see an assailant with body armor get up after being hit with a slug!......or even 00or birdshot!....especially within 21 ft.......a whole lotta Hurt......


I dunno about you, but I do not count on "just hurt" to save my life.

I also would NOT like to see an assailant get back up after getting shot - I prefer they stay down where they belong.

While getting hit with a slug while wearing a vest (let alone without one!) would be one of the furthest things from "fun" that I can imagine, it certainly will *not* penetrate the vest, and might not really do that much to someone on drugs.

Good point about overpenetration, but that's why we have ammo like Hornady TAP. ;)

Point is, I'm not going to rely on "probably" and "should" when it comes to defending my life.

A .223 or .308 WILL penetrate armor and certainly WILL put a BIG dent in your day's plans if you take a few to your center mass.

I mention armor because it IS increasingly used by thugs, especially in home invasions.

And IIRC, .223 just might penetrate FEWER walls than 00 Buck, and almost certainly penetrates less than slugs.....again, IIRC.

ViPER395
05-31-2008, 9:34 AM
I don't think any intruder be getting up with a shotgun muzzle holding his head to the floor by his tonsils.

ajl2121
05-31-2008, 10:30 AM
00 Buck & slugs are the only suitable defense shotgun rounds, yes.

Before you go buy a bunch of shotshells, I'm gonna ask you why you think a shottie is your best SHTF weapon?

It has a very low capacity (max of 8 or 9 rounds compared to minimum of 20 for any magazine-fed rifle), very slow to reload compared to a mag-fed rifle, ammo is MUCH bulkier which means you cannot store or carry as much as you can rifle ammo, and shotguns will NOT penetrate body armor.

They are also less than ideal for defending against multiple enemies and have a very limited range compared to a rifle.

Frankly, I don't even think a shottie is a good everyday home defense weapon because it will not penetrate body armor & is not good for multiple enemies, let alone SHTF.

I strongly suggest you get a nice AR or .308 semi-auto rifle, learn to use it very well and stock up on either .223 or .308.


I do plan on getting a rifle in the future. I have a USP .45 next to my bed, and the mossberg is in the closet. If SHTF and I have a rifle with 30 round magazines for rebuild purposes, would it be wise to take off the BB and use the 30 rounders? I mean, if the world is coming to an end with people turning into zombies, who the heck cares, right? BUT, in a more SHTF scenario that seems more realistic to me is something of a natural disaster. In that scenario where order will hopefully be regained, I would be hesistant to go balls out and use an "assault weapon." Completely depends on the scenario, however.

I appologize for slight digression in topic. So, considering reduced recoil 00 bucks and slugs, what shells would be competitive, if not better, than the federal LE tactical 2.75" reduced recoil 00 bucks, and the federal LE tactical 2.75" reduced recoil slugs/rifled slugs???

Should I get rifled slugs or regular slugs out of a mossberg 500 persuader? What about out of a semi???

ViPER395
05-31-2008, 10:36 AM
Can you still buy those little short shells in CA?

You could probably fit 5 more in a 500/590 tube, less recoil, and they come in 00, IIRC.

ajl2121
05-31-2008, 11:37 AM
Can you still buy those little short shells in CA?

You could probably fit 5 more in a 500/590 tube, less recoil, and they come in 00, IIRC.


I believe you are referring to the aguila mini shells? I heard they work well w/ the mossberg 500 series, but I hear mixed reviews. Also might look bad w/ the DOJ if you have 14 rounds in your shotty.

RobG
05-31-2008, 11:38 AM
Also might look bad w/ the DOJ if you have 14 rounds in your shotty.

:confused:Explain...

pullnshoot25
05-31-2008, 12:32 PM
A shotgun may not penetrate body armor, but a 525gr slug will sure knock you on your *** and maybe knock you out? Anyone with experience or vids on this one?

DrjonesUSA
05-31-2008, 12:33 PM
A shotgun may not penetrate body armor, but a 525gr slug will sure knock you on your *** and maybe knock you out? Anyone with experience or vids on this one?


Does a shotgun "knock you on your ###" when you shoot it?

Then it cannot knock you down when you get hit by a shot from one.

Basic laws of physics and all that...... ;)

ViPER395
05-31-2008, 12:39 PM
You're kidding right?

A 12ga slug to the chest at close range and you're not going to take it and stay standing up. It might not "knock you on your ***" but you will lose balance and fall most certainly. Some loss of balance may also be attributed to sharting one's self simultaneously.

Does a shotgun "knock you on your ###" when you shoot it?

Then it cannot knock you down when you get hit by a shot from one.

Basic laws of physics and all that...... ;)

DrjonesUSA
05-31-2008, 12:39 PM
I do plan on getting a rifle in the future. I have a USP .45 next to my bed, and the mossberg is in the closet. If SHTF and I have a rifle with 30 round magazines for rebuild purposes, would it be wise to take off the BB and use the 30 rounders? I mean, if the world is coming to an end with people turning into zombies, who the heck cares, right? BUT, in a more SHTF scenario that seems more realistic to me is something of a natural disaster. In that scenario where order will hopefully be regained, I would be hesistant to go balls out and use an "assault weapon." Completely depends on the scenario, however.

I appologize for slight digression in topic. So, considering reduced recoil 00 bucks and slugs, what shells would be competitive, if not better, than the federal LE tactical 2.75" reduced recoil 00 bucks, and the federal LE tactical 2.75" reduced recoil slugs/rifled slugs???

Should I get rifled slugs or regular slugs out of a mossberg 500 persuader? What about out of a semi???



- If the aftermath of Katrina is any indication, your biggest threat is going to be from LE confiscating your firearms, and they didn't really seem to care how they were configured - "assault weapon" or not.

Of course you should absolutely lose the BB and break out those 30-rounders you bought before the ban.

Why don't you look up some ballistics on low-recoil vs. standard buckshot and post your results here?


I personally have a stash of the Federal Low-Recoil because that is the only 00 buck I can find in quantity - the regular high-brass stuff only comes in boxes of 5 shells.

I highly doubt that there is a significant difference in terminal ballistics between low-recoil and high-brass buckshot and I also highly doubt that anyone getting shot would be able to tell whether they were getting shot with low-recoil or not. ;)

DrjonesUSA
05-31-2008, 12:41 PM
You're kidding right?

A 12ga slug to the chest at close range and you're not going to take it and stay standing up. It might not "knock you on your ***" but you will lose balance and fall most certainly. Some loss of balance may also be attributed to sharting one's self.


I think we can agree that getting shot with a 12 ga anything, particularly a slug, and whether or not you are wearing any sort of vest, would be *really* unpleasant, to use an understatement. :D

pullnshoot25
05-31-2008, 2:13 PM
Does a shotgun "knock you on your ###" when you shoot it?

Then it cannot knock you down when you get hit by a shot from one.

Basic laws of physics and all that...... ;)

I am aware of the parameters of physics, it was more figurative than anything. I don't think anyone is getting up after a buck slug to the chest (not even 50 cent) and from what I have gathered through perfunctory web browsing, if one has less than Level III armor on, they have a good chance of being toast.

Lets see some results!

tophatjones
05-31-2008, 2:56 PM
The shotgun does have some advantages as a SHTF weapon.

1) Shotguns (depending on what you have) are generally perceived as less 'evil' than semi auto rifles. This is key to maintaining a low profile. A real possible 'what if' when carrying a semi auto battle rifle is the possibility that someone from a distance will perceive you as an immediate threat (or reward), and a gunfight would ensue where it wouldn't have if you had something more tame. Not everyone post SHTF will be a raider, but there will be a lot of paranoid people, so having something that can maintain low profile will be key.

2) Since most engagements (if there even are any) will most likely be very close range. It won't be like a military battle where one group is flying their colors and another group is flying colors of their own. So you won't know who to shoot at long range, and they won't shoot you at long range. Unless you encounter a gang of highly trained raiders with full battle rifles, you'll be mostly dealing with mostly sane people who are dazed and a bit lost.

3) If most encounters are at close ranges, the shotgun will be faster and easier to shoot. A slug may not penetrate armor, but how many people post SHTF will have armor? Again, no war necessarily is being fought.

That being said, the shotgun does have its disadvantages.

1) The ammo is really heavy and bulky. If you ever need to run away from your domicile and survive out in the S, you're in trouble if all you have are shells, because you won't have very many of them.

2) What if there are indeed raiders or soldiers? They'd have armor and would seriously out-range you. You'd have to utilize some effort to procure some of their weapons. Unless you're the hollywood movie hero, actually doing this is practically impossible.

3) Slow reloads and low capacity.

The shotgun is a perfectly viable SHTF gun because the best course of action (besides finding and grouping up with trustworthy, skilled people) is to avoid any and all firefights if possible. Since long range engagements are easier to avoid and would be rare to begin with, if you are avoiding fights, you'll most likely only face 'absolute' fights at close range.

BigKevLA
05-31-2008, 3:41 PM
I think you may need both a rifle and a shotty if SHTF. Each has its advantages. Close quarters I will take the shotty(870 w/8 rounds) with a load of OO buck and slugs and my trusty .45 side arm. Other than that give me a rifle in 7.62 Nato or 7.62x39. If you trying to lay some raiders down 5.56doesn't have the punch! I know all the ar fans are going to get me for that one but it is the truth.

Diabolus
05-31-2008, 7:00 PM
If you're looking for a great way to store shotgun ammo I just bought one of MTMs SD-100. You can also purchase an additional tray for the case that brings the round count to 150 shells. Plus it has a water resistant seal.

I keep 100 Hornady TAP 00 and 50 Federal slugs.

Here's a link to the storage box:

http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/shotgun/shot.html

Noah
05-31-2008, 8:43 PM
Oh, I only have the standard barrel...which I believe is referred to as a smooth bore barrel with no choke???

I also own the same exact 500. The barrel makes a terrible pattern with every brand of 00 I have shot through it. Over 20' and the shot really starts to spread. I hear Hornady TAP is much better ut have not had a chance to test any yet.
Anyways I have stocked up much more on slugs since test firing 00 through the gun.

I am aware of the parameters of physics, it was more figurative than anything. I don't think anyone is getting up after a buck slug to the chest (not even 50 cent) and from what I have gathered through perfunctory web browsing, if one has less than Level III armor on, they have a good chance of being toast.

Lets see some results!

last time I was at my local hill billy public range there was a large stainless steel skillet with the THICK ol' bottom on it. Federal 1600fps slugs punched holes through the bottom of it like a paper bag. :cool:
If they punch through steel like that I feel pretty cumfy protecting myself at close range with that no matter what kind of armor someone is wearing.
437.5 grains that is a lot of lead. :51:

Also for SHTF shotguns can shoot just about anything that will fit in the shell. Many many specialty rounds can be bought for a shotty.
http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php?cName=12-gauge-specialtyexotic

Flechette rounds will handle ANY body armor. They will turn a vest wearer into a sieve. They also find their way through bushes and brush better than a rifle round. Sadly illegal in PRK.

ar15barrels
05-31-2008, 9:01 PM
a 525gr slug will sure knock you on your *** and maybe knock you out? Anyone with experience or vids on this one?

You have been watching too many movies.

Ever heard of Newton's laws of physics?
That whole "equal but opposite reaction" one is a *****.
The slug hits the guy just as hard as it hits the shooter firing it.
I can stand there and shoot 9 slugs in rapid succession without getting knocked over.
What makes you think the guy getting hit by them is going to magically be knocked over?

Noah
05-31-2008, 9:10 PM
Randall is right. A slug will not blow you off your feet.
The slug hits the guy just as hard as it hits the shooter firing it. However the critical difference is psi - Pounds per inche^2.
Has anyone here ever fired a 12ga with a stock that comes to a point the size of your thumb?
It would not knock you off your feet, but you would probably be headed to the hospital to have your shoulder put back togeather... lol

ar15barrels
05-31-2008, 9:12 PM
Randall is right. A slug will not blow you off your feet.
However the critical difference is psi - Pounds per inche^2.
Has anyone here ever fired a 12ga with a stock that comes to a point the size of your thumb?
It would not knock you off your feet, but you would probably be headed to the hospital to have your shoulder put back togeather... lol

Taking a slug hit would certainly spoil your day, but it's not going to knock you over from sheer energy like it does in the movies.
You will likely collapse in shock.

Noah
05-31-2008, 9:24 PM
Yes, Yes.
I might be in shock, spitting up blood, have some broken ribs, or some other very unplesant injury.... However, I would still be standing, until my brain told me to go fetal. ;)

it's not going to knock you over from sheer energy
No, it will make you fly backwards through the air with your arms and legs flungs straight forward, until you hit that wall that is about 10 yards back or fly out a window.
Geez Randall, you seriously need to know that everything in the movies is real. Especially when it comes to guns and explosions. :)

ar15barrels
05-31-2008, 9:47 PM
Geez Randall, you seriously need to know that everything in the movies is real.

I work in the movie industry. ;)

Noah
05-31-2008, 9:55 PM
Ahh, you are lucky if you are a prop/pyro guy!
I am guessing you are.... making me very jealous.

draconianruler
05-31-2008, 10:30 PM
Mythbusters proved that you do not get blown off your feet by shotguns or other guns. Myth busted :D

mcubed4130
05-31-2008, 10:35 PM
I have never shot a buckshot or a slug out of my mossberg 500 yet. Only birdshots. I am planning on stocking some 12 gauge ammo, and was wondering if 00 bucks and slugs are all I need for SHTF. I was thinking...

Bucks:
1. 12 Ga. Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pell. OO Buck

Slugs:
1. 12 Gauge Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil Hydra-Shok Slug
OR
2. 12g Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil TRUBALL Rifled Slug

Also, I'm planning on getting a semi-auto some time in the future. I would like this ammo to work in both my mossberg 500 and possibly a 930, 1100, or M4.

Oh, I only have the standard barrel...which I believe is referred to as a smooth bore barrel with no choke???

In general - the answer is yes - #00 and slugs; will handle most situations... Here are some additional thoughts for you to ponder:


Baseline:

1. You have a Mossberg 500 - cylinder bore (no choke) - you can shoot ANYTHING. A rifled slug - is a longer discussion point; but they will work fine from your gun - and this is what I'd recommend; conversely I see no real point to a expander (hydra-shok) you are already shooting 76 cal; unclear why more expansion is needed.

2. If you get a semi-auto - you will likely have function problems with low-recoil ammo. Easy answer - buy normal full recoil stuff; you are already talking shotgun ammo; so you already have the lowest over-penetration anyway. If it's your shoulder you are worried about - Buy a Limbsaver pad; or a Knoxx recoil reduction solution... or both.


PROs on a Shotgun:

1. The shotgun - is a VERY versatile weapon - different loads are used for different things.

1A. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to hunt for food? Birdshot is your friend, or Buckshot for larger game animals.

1B. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with close range threats? (7 yards or less) - Maybe rabid dogs? Coyotes? Other threats with up to man sized? #00 Buckshot is your friend. (at 21 feet - nearly any brand of #00 buck will provide a nice tight 3-4" pattern, at 10yards+ you will need to test your brands of ammo w/your barrel - and deal with the same brand may shoot like crap from batch to batch in your gun)

1C. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with a hostage situation? Slugs are your friend.

1D. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an armored target? Slugs will likely not penetrate LVL3 (129 layer kevlar) but they will push that armor a couple inches into the target and likely break ribs; possible punctured lung. Shock and blood loss are now in play; worst case - take a head shot; or a 2nd shot.

1E. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with a target out to 100yards w/iron sights? Slugs are your friend.

1F. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with dangerous animals - such as a hungry bear? 3" Magnum Slugs are your friend; although a multi-load of #00, slug, #00, slug, #00, slug - generally will encourage bear to leave w/o eating you.

1G. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with a locked door? Buckshot will easily take the hinges off nearly anything.

1H. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with signaling for help? specialized ammunition is available for the 12g shotgun like no other; flare rounds are your friend.

1I. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an angry mob coming to take your food; your guns; whatever? pepper gas rounds are your friend.

1J. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an armed group in thick concealment - that are taking shots at you? Anti-personal beahive - flechette rounds are your friend.

2. A pump action shotgun is one of the most durable, reliable weapons on the planet.

3. Shotgun ammo will provide the least amount of over-penetration - while providing enough punch for the job needed. Examples: #00 buck typically will only penetrate 3 to 4 - internal walls (made of gypsum). slugs are more like 4 to 5 internal walls. In general you don't need to worry about a hollow point handgun round - sucking up the gypsum and effectively becoming AP and going through your neighbors house. (which is one of the main reasons most LE are moving away from handguns; and instead into ARs w/frangibles)


CONs on a Shotgun:

1. Like any weapon; it can become jammed; you can run out of ammo, etc... always have a sidearm available.

2. Most shotguns carry less than 10 rounds; and are tube feed, which makes reloading slow.

3. Ammo is heavy and cumbersome; therefore a reduced amount can be carried.

Mitigations to Shotgun CONs:

1. Take a combat shotgun class; you will learn the art of the combat load; and how to top-off as you are in the firefight - always keeping your weapon at max capacity on the magazine.

2. Are you traveling across country during SHTF? Are you walking? or are you driving? Or are you protecting your home? Heavy and cumbersome are issues when you are carrying everything on your back. It may be an issue in your bug-out vehicle; depending on space - it's unlikely an issue if you are protecting your home. Grab your 50 round bandoleers - make the X cross with them across your body - now you have 100 rounds.

-M3

pullnshoot25
05-31-2008, 10:37 PM
You have been watching too many movies.

Ever heard of Newton's laws of physics?
That whole "equal but opposite reaction" one is a *****.
The slug hits the guy just as hard as it hits the shooter firing it.
I can stand there and shoot 9 slugs in rapid succession without getting knocked over.
What makes you think the guy getting hit by them is going to magically be knocked over?

I actually haven't seen too many, believe it or not.

As stated before, I am well aware of the parameters of physics... you know, m1v1=m2v2, Ek=((m(v^2))/2, f=mg, t=d x F, etc etc etc. I know it wont knock someone on their *** after flying backwards through the air like a Raggedy Anne doll, but I would think that the chances are high of penetrating lower level body armor or, in the case of heavier armor with respect to a well-placed COM shot, at least causing contusions of the cardiac muscles or damage to the other essential circulatory/respiratory areas of the chest, which in the end will basically cause you to fall on your ***.

Just the thoughts running through my head at the moment. I wish there was a way we could definitively measure the forces exerted on the body through several different vests and then compare it to medical data to determine the most likely outcome.

ajl2121
06-01-2008, 4:08 PM
In general - the answer is yes - #00 and slugs; will handle most situations... Here are some additional thoughts for you to ponder:


Baseline:

1. You have a Mossberg 500 - cylinder bore (no choke) - you can shoot ANYTHING. A rifled slug - is a longer discussion point; but they will work fine from your gun - and this is what I'd recommend; conversely I see no real point to a expander (hydra-shok) you are already shooting 76 cal; unclear why more expansion is needed.

2. If you get a semi-auto - you will likely have function problems with low-recoil ammo. Easy answer - buy normal full recoil stuff; you are already talking shotgun ammo; so you already have the lowest over-penetration anyway. If it's your shoulder you are worried about - Buy a Limbsaver pad; or a Knoxx recoil reduction solution... or both.


PROs on a Shotgun:

1. The shotgun - is a VERY versatile weapon - different loads are used for different things.

1A. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to hunt for food? Birdshot is your friend, or Buckshot for larger game animals.

1B. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with close range threats? (7 yards or less) - Maybe rabid dogs? Coyotes? Other threats with up to man sized? #00 Buckshot is your friend. (at 21 feet - nearly any brand of #00 buck will provide a nice tight 3-4" pattern, at 10yards+ you will need to test your brands of ammo w/your barrel - and deal with the same brand may shoot like crap from batch to batch in your gun)

1C. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with a hostage situation? Slugs are your friend.

1D. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an armored target? Slugs will likely not penetrate LVL3 (129 layer kevlar) but they will push that armor a couple inches into the target and likely break ribs; possible punctured lung. Shock and blood loss are now in play; worst case - take a head shot; or a 2nd shot.

1E. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with a target out to 100yards w/iron sights? Slugs are your friend.

1F. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with dangerous animals - such as a hungry bear? 3" Magnum Slugs are your friend; although a multi-load of #00, slug, #00, slug, #00, slug - generally will encourage bear to leave w/o eating you.

1G. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with a locked door? Buckshot will easily take the hinges off nearly anything.

1H. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with signaling for help? specialized ammunition is available for the 12g shotgun like no other; flare rounds are your friend.

1I. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an angry mob coming to take your food; your guns; whatever? pepper gas rounds are your friend.

1J. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an armed group in thick concealment - that are taking shots at you? Anti-personal beahive - flechette rounds are your friend.

2. A pump action shotgun is one of the most durable, reliable weapons on the planet.

3. Shotgun ammo will provide the least amount of over-penetration - while providing enough punch for the job needed. Examples: #00 buck typically will only penetrate 3 to 4 - internal walls (made of gypsum). slugs are more like 4 to 5 internal walls. In general you don't need to worry about a hollow point handgun round - sucking up the gypsum and effectively becoming AP and going through your neighbors house. (which is one of the main reasons most LE are moving away from handguns; and instead into ARs w/frangibles)


CONs on a Shotgun:

1. Like any weapon; it can become jammed; you can run out of ammo, etc... always have a sidearm available.

2. Most shotguns carry less than 10 rounds; and are tube feed, which makes reloading slow.

3. Ammo is heavy and cumbersome; therefore a reduced amount can be carried.

Mitigations to Shotgun CONs:

1. Take a combat shotgun class; you will learn the art of the combat load; and how to top-off as you are in the firefight - always keeping your weapon at max capacity on the magazine.

2. Are you traveling across country during SHTF? Are you walking? or are you driving? Or are you protecting your home? Heavy and cumbersome are issues when you are carrying everything on your back. It may be an issue in your bug-out vehicle; depending on space - it's unlikely an issue if you are protecting your home. Grab your 50 round bandoleers - make the X cross with them across your body - now you have 100 rounds.

-M3

Great Stuff!!! Just lovely.

I didn't mean for this post to be a "what's the best weapon for SHTF," btw. It seems that some may have perceived this as a shotgun/rifle type debate. By no means what that the point. I plan on getting a rifle..Thus, having a 12 gauge, 223/308, and a .45...That should suffice for most SHTF scenarios...

The point, then, was to discuss if 00 buck and slugs are sufficient if SHTF considering just the weapon of a shotgun. Apparently, the two will suffice under most conditions, but as posted above, it seems that additional shots could prove to be a protean asset.

duenor
06-01-2008, 4:31 PM
I respectfully must add a few comments.

1. Flechette rounds are banned in CA. Owning flechettes is not illegal. Nor is having the equipment to load them up.

2. Reloading a shotgun is NOT slow, if you know what you are doing. I used to think this too. I have many shotguns. Let me pick one - okay, a Benelli M1s90. This is how I reload on the run - right hand on pistol grip, left hand inserts rounds through the bottom while I am still on target. Not slow at all, and I can reload while shooting at the same time.

3. Just because my gun holds 7 does not mean I have only seven shots. Each shell contains 30 .22 caliber pellets. 7x30=210 shots. Contrary to hollywood, shotgun shells do not spread out into massive cones of destruction. But contrary to what many gunnies think, they also don't stay tight for long at all. Expect a dinner sized plate hole at 7 yards. Use nickle plate ammunition for more penetration.

3. overpenetration is a huge concern. remember, there may not be doctors when SHTF; so your wife's "flesh wound" can quickly turn lethal.

4. to say that a shotgun blast won't knock you down because of newtonian physics is like the guy is fallacious. if that was strictly true, then the guy who is punching you in the stomach would be hurt just as much as you. nope. yes, force is distributed. but where and how matters. no armor at close range = instant death, as close as you can get to a ray gun. I have shot many things with shotguns at close range and I do not see any human surviving that kind of massive damage. the same is not true of ball rifle ammunition.

5. finally, there is the intimadation factor. no, i am not referring to the magic "ka-klunk' of the slide. i am referring to the instant recognizability of the shotgun as a lethal deterrent. the same cannot be said of rifles, especially ones like the mini14. remember, you do NOT want to shoot anyone, SHTF or not. this is proven, both in my personal experience and in many LEOs that I know.

does this mean that the shotgun is the ultimate weapon? no. it just means that it is superior to the rifle for close range, urban, defensive purposes where you have a lot of factors to consider besides simple combat. different guns for different purposes.

M. Sage
06-01-2008, 6:31 PM
1D. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an armored target? Slugs will likely not penetrate LVL3 (129 layer kevlar) but they will push that armor a couple inches into the target and likely break ribs; possible punctured lung. Shock and blood loss are now in play; worst case - take a head shot; or a 2nd shot.

Legs. Especially with 00B. :43:

I agree that expansion is probably un-needed. I know that a 20 gauge slug can put a 250-ish lb animal down in a single hit.

1G. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with a locked door? Buckshot will easily take the hinges off nearly anything.

Buckshot is dangerous for breaching. Use the #8 birdshot. Buckshot can come back and wound you. Birdshot is too light to seriously hurt you, even if it bounces back with enough energy to pierce your clothing.


1J. In your SHTF scenario - do you need to deal with an armed group in thick concealment - that are taking shots at you? Anti-personal beahive - flechette rounds are your friend.

Eh. Flechettes are illegal and don't seem to have great stopping power.

I respectfully must add a few comments.

1. Flechette rounds are banned in CA. Owning flechettes is not illegal. Nor is having the equipment to load them up.

2. Reloading a shotgun is NOT slow, if you know what you are doing. I used to think this too. I have many shotguns. Let me pick one - okay, a Benelli M1s90. This is how I reload on the run - right hand on pistol grip, left hand inserts rounds through the bottom while I am still on target. Not slow at all, and I can reload while shooting at the same time.

Slow is relative. Compared to the around 3 seconds that you can change a 30-round magazine in a rifle, a shotgun is a little slow.

4. to say that a shotgun blast won't knock you down because of newtonian physics is like the guy is fallacious. if that was strictly true, then the guy who is punching you in the stomach would be hurt just as much as you. nope. yes, force is distributed. but where and how matters. no armor at close range = instant death, as close as you can get to a ray gun. I have shot many things with shotguns at close range and I do not see any human surviving that kind of massive damage. the same is not true of ball rifle ammunition.

Ball ammo for SHTF is foolish. Soft-points are much more effective. Anyway, I agree with you on stopping power of a shotgun. Not much can stand in front of one and keep standing.

I also would say that a shotgun will knock someone down, even if they're wearing armor. Balance is the key, and how quickly they're being asked to absorb the energy from that shotgun blast. You're ready for it when you shoot a shotgun, your balance is adjusted and set. That might not be the case with the person on the other end. They might simply be knocked off balance enough to fall down. Either way, knocked-down. I know I've seen white tail deer knocked over...

duenor
06-01-2008, 7:00 PM
Oh, and I forgot to mention. Years ago I happened to be at a demonstration where I saw a girl go head over heels after being hit by a beanbag round in the head. Granted, IIRC she was in mid-jump to throw a plastic bottle at the man, but all the same...

So, YES, you can easily get knocked on your butt. Or, in her case, on her head.... twice... first the bag to the head, then off the concrete.... ouch.

In response to Sage:
Yes, ball ammo for SD is foolish, but how many people have any soft point ammo ready for defensive use? I am damn well prepared, and I only have about 120 rounds of softpoint... although I do have an unopened case of Wolf HP. Truth is, in SHTF, almost everybody with ARs is going to be using Ball, or Green Tip at best. Even Big 5 only keeps about 10 boxes in stock.

That's one more nice thing about shotguns. There's no such thing as an ineffective buckshot round. Hell, even birdshot isn't to be trifled with inside a house, especially if you put on a nice tight choke

ETA: the girl survived and was well enough to be interviewed by the news later that same day. she had a HELL of a black eye... about 1/3rd of her face was purple and black.

ar15barrels
06-01-2008, 7:07 PM
the girl survived and was well enough to be interviewed by the news later that same day.
she had a HELL of a black eye... about 1/3rd of her face was purple and black.

Lesson learned: don't throw bottles at guys with shotguns.

Maton
06-01-2008, 8:48 PM
00 Buck & slugs are the only suitable defense shotgun rounds, yes.

Before you go buy a bunch of shotshells, I'm gonna ask you why you think a shottie is your best SHTF weapon?

It has a very low capacity (max of 8 or 9 rounds compared to minimum of 20 for any magazine-fed rifle), very slow to reload compared to a mag-fed rifle, ammo is MUCH bulkier which means you cannot store or carry as much as you can rifle ammo, and shotguns will NOT penetrate body armor.

They are also less than ideal for defending against multiple enemies and have a very limited range compared to a rifle.

Frankly, I don't even think a shottie is a good everyday home defense weapon because it will not penetrate body armor & is not good for multiple enemies, let alone SHTF.

I strongly suggest you get a nice AR or .308 semi-auto rifle, learn to use it very well and stock up on either .223 or .308.

I agree with the rest of your post, but dude lol I don't care who you are if you get hit with a slug dead center of the chest, body armor or not you are going down and net getting back up. If you get hit with slug, with body armor on, time to push up flowers. Shotgun dominates close range(within 15 yards, even full auto with the M4 has nothing on it... again trust me I've tested it) The rest of your post is spot on.

E. Fudd
06-01-2008, 9:06 PM
Wrt reduce recoil buck and slugs, some finicky semi-autos may not cycle reliably with them, while some feed both reduced and std with no problem. Be sure to function test w/ your new semi to be sure it's 100% reliable with your ammo.

Also, note that there is a shift in point of impact between reduce recoil slugs and standard slugs, several inches at 50 yd. (mostly in elevation). Varies depending on barrel. So, if you zero for one, but have both in inventory, shoot the other to find out in advance where it hits. The bigger the shift, the greater the distance.

Federal Tactical Reduced recoil 00 buck is supposed to have one of the tightest patterns due to it's wad design and buffered pellets. My limited testing seemed to confirms this in standard 870 barrels, Vang Comps, and Benellis. Some of the other brands of buck have no buffering material and always seem to have more flyers (one or two pellets out of the rest of the group).

1lostinspace
06-01-2008, 10:29 PM
I watched a guy take not 1 but 2 00 shots at point blank and still move around the ground! I could not believe it, it was caught on a security camera in a grocery store in Vegas.

Personally I took out all my 00 and replaced them with 000.

People do weird things when you shoot at them, like seek cover.

:hide:

duenor
06-02-2008, 1:49 AM
I'm pretty sure that if one is wearing even level 2 armor with a steel plate, and you get hit in the steel plate, you are not going to die.

you will hurt like the dickens though. in the box of truth tests that steel plate got dented pretty bad...

a buddy of mine got tagged twice within a few minutes in iraq a year and a half ago. he's a medic. the first one hit him in the upper torso, and the second in the back. 7.62x54r probably. first one knocked him backwards and made him drop all hsi stuff. the second hit him as he was trying to get back up. he scrambled up and away in record time. body armor saved his butt. said the bruises were the size of grapefruits.

anyway, the point is that shotgun slugs and buckshot works.

Lost in space, I want to see that vid. I'm willing to bet a $20 that the "00 buck" in that video is actually birdshot. I've shot a helluva lot of things at 7yards with 00 buck. at even that distance the lead is one loose fist of metal. at point blank.. you are basically hitting him with a prefragmented slug. any man who gets up and walks around after being hit with one let alone two #4 or 00 buck shells is not human.

ar15barrels,
the girl was one of the demonstrators against one of the anti immigration bills of the early 2000s. like i tell my kids... go join demonstrations and protests if you must, but as soon as people start throwing rocks or bottles, get the hell out of there because the CS and rubber batons are going to get broken out...

BillCA
06-02-2008, 3:32 AM
In a SHTF situation, a 12-gauge with #4, #00, #000 buckshot will keep you safe from goblins out to about 25-30 yards. Slugs will extend that range to 75-100 yards with a bunch of whoop-a** behind them.

Shotguns (I despise the term shottie) with large, effective shot, will send more lead downrange faster than most CA legal rifles, even if they have 20 or 30 round magazines. (8rd x 9 pellets =72 projectiles).

One key in SHTF events is to keep a low profile but not a vulnerable profile. People fear the shotgun due to the folklore surrounding them. This acts as an excellent deterrent.

One must keep in mind that beyond about 30-35 yards the shotgun's pattern opens up considerably. At 5-7 yards the pattern is about hand sized. At 10 yards a little bigger. 15 Yards is about a dinner plate and 20 yards is a platter. By 30 yards you're getting peripheral hits and at 35 yards you may only get 1-4 hits.

Proper stocking for SHTF in urban areas should include a box or two of #4 birdshot. In more rural areas where game birds might actually be available more is better.

Avoid the Augila mini-shells unless you single load them. I've seen too many shotguns not feed them properly. Excellent is double-bores and single shots for home defense however.

At close range, wounds from a shotgun more resemble artillery wounds than gunshot wounds. --U.S. Army Surgeon General

A 12-gauge rifled slug is 1 oz or about 437gr, moving at 1760 fps (W-W 3" Mag slug) will produce more than 3000 ft-lbs/sq-inch. Vest or no vest, that amount of energy can cause serious injury. Even with a trauma plate it can possibly stop your heart. Without a trauma plate it's a near certainty. You might get back up, but it's unlikely you'll want to play anymore.

For SHTF situations, it's better to be able to stand off predators than let them get close. My long range sniper is a scoped 1903A3 Springfield that can make hits between 100-700 yards. Under 200 yards a semi-auto rifle rules. Few are better than either the AR or AK platforms. Under 50 yards and especially while moving on foot or auto, the shotgun wins.

A .30 caliber rifle is handy if predators take "cover" behind parked cars or similar obstacles. Especially if you have any AP ammo. The average car does not pose much obstacle to .30 FMJ and almost none to .30 AP.

In re: FMJ vs. SP vs. HP rifle rounds. In a SHTF situation being hit by any gunfire is likely to be lethal due to a lack of first-responders. The 5.56mm's violent terminal ballistics usually means immediate and effective medical treatment is necessary. It is unlikely this will be available to predators. If you like SP/HP's you can put them as the first 1-4 rounds in magazines. If you haven't hit with those first 4 rounds then you'll want the (cheaper) FMJ for all the penetration you can get. Mine have 2-rds of 62g Vmax on top of SS109.

More important than all of the above is, if you live alone, when do you plan to sleep? How will you maintain security while resting or eating?

duenor
06-02-2008, 8:05 AM
Excellent post.

Either form a party or become invisible when the big one hits.

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 8:56 AM
I'm pretty sure that if one is wearing even level 2 armor with a steel plate, and you get hit in the steel plate, you are not going to die.

you will hurt like the dickens though. in the box of truth tests that steel plate got dented pretty bad...

a buddy of mine got tagged twice within a few minutes in iraq a year and a half ago. he's a medic. the first one hit him in the upper torso, and the second in the back. 7.62x54r probably. first one knocked him backwards and made him drop all hsi stuff. the second hit him as he was trying to get back up. he scrambled up and away in record time. body armor saved his butt. said the bruises were the size of grapefruits.

anyway, the point is that shotgun slugs and buckshot works.


How does a comparison between 7.62x54R mean anything whatsoever?


Lost in space, I want to see that vid. I'm willing to bet a $20 that the "00 buck" in that video is actually birdshot. I've shot a helluva lot of things at 7yards with 00 buck. at even that distance the lead is one loose fist of metal. at point blank.. you are basically hitting him with a prefragmented slug. any man who gets up and walks around after being hit with one let alone two #4 or 00 buck shells is not human.




There are many, many variables at play with humans and injuries. People have died from a single .22 and people have walked away from multiple hits from larger weapons.

At the end of the day, we are comparing apples to oranges - shotguns and rifles. My point is that a shotgun will NOT penetrate even low-level body armor, not according to the tests I've seen.

ANY rifle WILL. Period, end of story.

I'm not going to risk my life on "well, the shotamagun is a magical death ray that instantly vaporizes anything I point it at. Even a thug wearing body armor is no match for my shottie because I will bruise him so badly, he will run home to mamma!"

You guys do that, I'm going to be using my rifle that WILL penetrate armor in the event that the enemy is wearing it and WILL cause massive wounding.

As I said before, the use of body armor by thugs IS INCREASING, particularly during home invasions.

This means that you WILL BE FACING multiple assailants and MOST or ALL of them WILL BE WEARING BODY ARMOR THAT YOUR SHOTGUN WILL NOT PENETRATE.

I seriously cannot believe that duenor actually said that the "shotgun is as close as you can get to a magical death ray." Way to destroy your credibility, because no such thing exists because there are WAY too many variables at play - is the enemy wearing body armor? Is he on drugs/alcohol? What type of clothing is he wearing? Heavy coats & leather will certainly affect penetration of various rounds.

Etc. etc. etc.

Again, my only point is to say that the shotgun will NOT penetrate body armor which is why I choose a rifle for my defense weapon, especially in SHTF.

1lostinspace
06-02-2008, 9:20 AM
I'm pretty sure that if one is wearing even level 2 armor with a steel plate, and you get hit in the steel plate, you are not going to die.

you will hurt like the dickens though. in the box of truth tests that steel plate got dented pretty bad...

a buddy of mine got tagged twice within a few minutes in iraq a year and a half ago. he's a medic. the first one hit him in the upper torso, and the second in the back. 7.62x54r probably. first one knocked him backwards and made him drop all hsi stuff. the second hit him as he was trying to get back up. he scrambled up and away in record time. body armor saved his butt. said the bruises were the size of grapefruits.

anyway, the point is that shotgun slugs and buckshot works.

Lost in space, I want to see that vid. I'm willing to bet a $20 that the "00 buck" in that video is actually birdshot. I've shot a helluva lot of things at 7yards with 00 buck. at even that distance the lead is one loose fist of metal. at point blank.. you are basically hitting him with a prefragmented slug. any man who gets up and walks around after being hit with one let alone two #4 or 00 buck shells is not human.

ar15barrels,
the girl was one of the demonstrators against one of the anti immigration bills of the early 2000s. like i tell my kids... go join demonstrations and protests if you must, but as soon as people start throwing rocks or bottles, get the hell out of there because the CS and rubber batons are going to get broken out...

it was 00 they went into detail as far as where the pellets ended up a few went all the way through, and he was not wearing any armor just some guy working at a grocery store. As far as the video sorry I don't have it.

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:37 AM
I seriously cannot believe that duenor actually said that the "shotgun is as close as you can get to a magical death ray." Way to destroy your credibility, because no such thing exists because there are WAY too many variables at play - is the enemy wearing body armor? Is he on drugs/alcohol? What type of clothing is he wearing? Heavy coats & leather will certainly affect penetration of various rounds.


Easy, neighbor. My comments are almost always at least somewhat tongue in cheek. Yes, I agree with you that death rays do not exist. Nor does heat vision.

But let's examine that.

--The guy's on drugs? Simple physiology - just because he's hopped up on whatever does not mean he's superhuman. The strongest freak in the world cannot do much with two collasped lungs or a pulverised diaphraghm. Same goes for destroyed kneecap or crushed skull. My shotgun isn't single shot. Far from it. If my initial shot to COM doesn't drop him, it doesn't matter... the second, immediately following shell is being aimed at his head anyway. Or legs. Seems to me that in this situation my shotgun will do better than your rifle.

--Body armor. Well, you went from "use of body armor by thugs is increasing" to "you WILL BE FACING multiple assailants and MOST or ALL of them WILL BE WEARING BODY ARMOR". I respectfully disagree that most thugs wear body armor. Look around yourself here at calguns. Even in this most rabidly armed populace, how many poeple here do you think own even the most rudimentary of armor? I have a vest, helmet, and full riot gear in my closet. But I'm probably a freakish exception. but let's just say that you are right, and i find myself being confronted by three turtled thugs breaking down my door in the middle of the night wearing level II (level III would defeat your rifle too, so let's say level II) armor and Spartan Mark IV shoulder guards. If they are heavily armed as well, let's say with Uzis and Mac10s, I'm already FUBAR'ed. You would be too, rifle notwithstanding. But let's say that my trusty dog does his job and warns me in time so that I ditch my handgun which I sleep with a grab my shotgun. To my dismay, I find that there are three Foot clan soldiers dressed for bear in my living room. Well, same applies as before. Change your tactics to suit your needs. Headshots, and concentrate on causing massive blunt force trauma. There's some good tests on clay under armor done at box of truth. Have you ever been hit really really hard by a blunt object to the torso area? I have. It's pretty disabling.
now, granted, a shotgun is not necessarily the idea weapon to have when dealing with armored guys. but then again, i'm not advocating that the shotgun be the end to all weapon discussion. i'm simply saying that it does its job really well, and in most cases will be preferable to the rifle.


as for heavy boots and leather.... the idea that leather jackets are going to do much for a guy being shot with 00 buck at close range is laughable. you can't be serious... that argument is a lot like the one about how m1 carbine bullets just "bounced off" the frozen uniforms of chinese soldiers during the korean war.

The bottom line, for myself at least, is this. When I look through my toolbox and decide which handgun to carry, I think about many things. Will I need to penetrate armor? then the 7.62x25 is preferable. Will I need as much first shot stopping power as possible? Then the .45acp. Concealment? the 9x18mm. Capacity? the 9x19mm. Noise reduction? .45LC. the same is true for long arms. I have a lot of guns. this is because i envision a need for different guns for different applications.

BUT in the vast majority of HD, close range situations, barring Cuban paratroopers from Mother Russia, the shotgun is preferable to the rifle for the reasons above.

* It is massively damaging
* It is undisputably formidable and instinctively recognized as so
* It is effective as a small game hunter as well as man stopper
* It is inconspicuous so far as a long arm can be
* It is eminently reliable (not to include the gas operated guns)
* It is inexpensive
* It helps compensate for poor shooting ability
* It is easy to maintain - most shotguns can be cleaned with a stick and a sock if necessary. The barrel comes right out, unlike a rifle.
* it can be used to breach doors, destroy padlocks, disable vehicles and equipment.

there are more reasons, but that's just the highlights. by all means, keep your Rifle at the ready. I do. I have two loaded and ready right now, with little orange flags on the barrels to remind anyone picking them up that they are loaded. I also have two loaded handguns, and two loaded shotguns.

What can I say - I like having an ample toolbox

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:46 AM
Here is an excerpt from a CSI manual http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/CrimeJustice/CSI/default.asp?iNum=19

SHOTGUN PELLET WOUNDS

Shotgun wounds are very different from wounds caused by other firearms. The destructive force of a shotgun blast at close range is great. If the wound is to the head, the shape of the head may be greatly changed. Large sections of the head or face may be blown away. Close-range wounds of the trunk and abdomen may cause loops of intestine or other organs to hang out of the body. Or it may blow away a large portion of a victim's body.
When a shotgun is fired from a distance of 10 feet or less, the charge strikes as a fairly compact mass. It leaves a large central, circular hole with very ragged edges from the many single and overlapping punctures made by the shotgun pellets. This is known as the cookie cutter effect. Scattered around the large central hole are smaller holes made by individual shot beginning to disperse in flight. When a shotgun is fired at close range, the wounds are grossly burned and tattooed. As the distance increases between weapon and victim, the wound shows less tattooing and no burning. Beyond 10 feet the shot spreads in flight and strikes the body in a more scattered grouping so that no central hole occurs.
The length of the shotgun's barrel and the type of ammunition also influence the spray of the shot and the scattered pattern of the wound. A sawed-off barrel allows quicker spreading. And the spray may be cut if the shotgun is choke-bored. The slightly narrowed muzzle focuses the shot and delays its spraying. Birdshot, even when fired at close range, usually does not go through the trunk or abdomen of an adult. But when the shot load goes through a thinner portion of the body like the neck, limb, or shoulder, it makes large lacerated exit wounds. Sometimes small, ragged exit wounds are made when only some of the birdshot exits the body. At close range, buckshot, having a greater weight and energy, causes wounds similar to those made by large bullets.
Shotgun pellets cannot be linked to a certain gun by ballistics markings as rifled bullets can. However, the size of shot may be learned from printed material on the top wad or by marks left in the wadding. It can also be learned from printed information in the shot column. The gun's gage may be learned by comparing the diameter of the wad with other wads. If the wadding has not struck an intervening zone, it can be found within 50 feet of where the gun was fired. If the gun is fired within 10 feet of the victim, the wadding is often carried into the body with the shot.

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:50 AM
And this is the resulting damage on simulated soft tissue (tissue is actually much softer than clay), when hit with 00 buck at about 15 yards under level III armor.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/16-15.jpg

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:53 AM
I can't believe that I find it necessary to prove the massive damage potential of a shotgun, but here goes...

000 Buck against ballistic gelatin, underneath brand new denim.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292965
http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/12gintro.JPG
Simply put 10 simultaneous 9mm impacts can do a heck of a lot of damage and penetrate about as much as one might expect 10 simultaneous 9mm FMJ's to. Take it for what its worth . . . http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Maybe your leather jacket might have provided more protection :)

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:58 AM
and because i know someone is going to say, "well that was with 000 buck"....

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_1_rem/gelatin_buckshot_1_rem.html
Penetration depth: 16.5" inches. Temporary stretch cavity: 1" to 9.5" inches. 1# buckshot offers 16 .30 caliber pellets.
http://www.mercenariesguild.net/papercut/Wound/buckshot_1_remington_e.jpg

the reason why the left end of the block looks wierd is because it has been split in half.

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:59 AM
and here is #4 buck, which I really like...although I am loading 00 buck at the moment. I wouldn't feel insecure with #4 or #1 for that matter.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/12%20Gauge%20No%204%20Buckshot.jpg

duenor
06-02-2008, 10:01 AM
and this is an actual human wound... using lowly birdshot most likely given the number of little wounds. note the wound on the left. if that is from birdshot... imagine any of the above shell types.

http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/CrimeJustice/fig1908.gif

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 10:04 AM
Easy, neighbor. My comments are almost always at least somewhat tongue in cheek. Yes, I agree with you that death rays do not exist. Nor does heat vision.

:D

.
.
.
.

duenor
06-02-2008, 10:07 AM
oh, and as to why i made the comment about beign hit by x54R... no relation, really... except to prove that being hit while wearing armor still hurts like hell

dfens
06-02-2008, 10:21 AM
Here is how I see it with all the neutered rifles and ones we can't own to choose from in CA, the only real choice for a long gun is some sort of shotgun. If I could I would already have a AR-15 decked out to the max. I'm not messing with those bullet button bs rifles for self defense.

Personally I was never a shotgun kind of person but I am in the process of getting one as a SHTF gun or just another thing to have.

When something goes bump in the night I'll still reach for my handgun. But it would be nice to have a little more firepower if I need it.

A shotgun can be a very effective weapon, imagine seeing a guy carrying one around do you want to mess with him. I don't care if it's a cheap mossberg or a high end Benelli. Lets say your shooting into a crowd of people or a car the spray pattern will get the job done.

Now for most of us these kind of scenarios aren't likely to occur. But if some major disaster or riot occurs the more firepower the better.

I could think of many situations where a shotgun would very effective and some it won't be, but having another tool in your inventory helps.

Look at Joe Horn with a simple pump action he dispatched 2 criminals with ease and he was a over weight out of shape old guy.

Body armor get real we aren't at war, what criminal is going to be wearing it. That's just over estimating your opponent.

As I see it if you plan ahead and know what kind of gun fight you might be going into a shotgun could equalize or even dominate.

duenor
06-02-2008, 10:24 AM
Shotguns dominate close range.
As for rifles, I have a few CA legal ones that are excellent:

* Stripper clip fed FAL
* U15 AR15
* Saiga x39 16"
* Mini14
* PC9
* SU16CA
* FN49
* SVT
* SKS

all of the above are excellent rifles (with the SU16 more of a niche gun)

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 10:35 AM
and this is an actual human wound... using lowly birdshot most likely given the number of little wounds. note the wound on the left. if that is from birdshot... imagine any of the above shell types.

http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/CrimeJustice/fig1908.gif


Yes, that really looks very painful, but I highly doubt that it would be instantly lethal, which is what we are going after.

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 10:38 AM
Shotguns dominate close range.


We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I do not argue that the shotgun is anything less than a very formidable weapon and you raise many valid points, but I do not agree that it is undeniably superior to a .223 or .308 rifle at close range and for going against multiple adversaries as you claim.

:)

mcubed4130
06-02-2008, 10:38 AM
Yes, that really looks very painful, but I highly doubt that it would be instantly lethal, which is what we are going after.

There are plenty of reports of 556 nato; not being 1 shot stop either.

Maybe we should all get a M2HB for HD. :D

-M3

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 10:39 AM
One other thought is that based on simple recoil alone, I can absolutely fire my M1A MUCH faster and more accurately than any pump-action shotgun - the M1A recoils much less and I don't have to pump it. ;)

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 10:40 AM
Body armor get real we aren't at war, what criminal is going to be wearing it. That's just over estimating your opponent.


Facts are not something you can argue with.

Spend 2 minutes on Google and you will see what I am talking about: Body armor is becoming increasingly utilized by criminals, especially during home invasions.

duenor
06-02-2008, 10:47 AM
Jones IS right that one should not underestimate the enemy. Just because he is uneducated and stupid doesn't mean he won't have an irritating streak of self-preservation.

And Jones, I agree with you that the rifle does have advantages too. Would I feel undergunned if I had "only" a 223, 308, or even Ruger 10/22 in .22LR in my house? Not terribly. I have normal capacity magazines for all those firearms, so if the first shot doesn't stop anyone the next twenty or so will.

I've seen quite a few videos of humans getting shot by rifle rounds, incidentally. While anecdotal stories (some by my friends who were the ones doing the shooting) about BGs running off after being shot abound, in every single video Ive ever seen the BG pretty much hit the dirt with a resolute thud after being shot. In every single video, the BG also got shot several more times as he was falling.

I think we can agree philosophically that being shot by anything sucks. And this: if it is to be a shotgun, let it be with buckshot; if it is to be a rifle, let it be with a centerfire round.

given those characteristics, everything else is just shot placement.

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 10:47 AM
There are plenty of reports of 556 nato; not being 1 shot stop either.

Maybe we should all get a M2HB for HD. :D

-M3


Re: .223 - Kinda sorta.

Check out this thread here and the article has a lot of interesting points:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103041


The biggest problems with the .223 arise because the enemy is either hit at ranges beyond what is truly effective for the .223, or because it is being fired out of too short a barrel - the M4 has a 14.5" barrel which many argue does not produce sufficient velocity to maximize the .223's terminal ballistics.

This is essentially what the article said.

The other huge fact at play here is that soldiers cannot use anything other than FMJ. The dramatic trauma the .223 produces when it fragments is well-proven and civilians can take full advantage of that by using hollow point ammunition.


Re: the M2 for home defense, absolutely!!!!! ;) :D

duenor
06-02-2008, 10:50 AM
If you are buff enough to be shoulder firing the M2HB, or even carrying it around for that matter... those bad guys are already in for a world of hurt...

duenor
06-02-2008, 10:55 AM
Oh, since we are on the topic of ideal weapons of mass destruction.. here is my preferred home defense weapon

http://i25.tinypic.com/2ic0foi.jpg

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 11:14 AM
That is quite a shocking image you posted there. Don't you know there are women and children on this forum???


:D


I own 2 M2s - one for each hand. I shoot them like pistols, don't you? :D




Seriously though, I would think the M2 would do quite well in a fortified "safe" room pointed at the door, mounted on a tripod.

Never liked my neighbors or their neighbors or their neighbors or their neighbors or their neighbors anyway.

:rofl2::rofl2:

:36::36:

BigKevLA
06-02-2008, 11:17 AM
If a rifle is the firearm needed, give me something in 7.62X39 all day long.
As for the shotty, I think that if someone with body armor on got hit with a slug at 20ft or less that they will go down from the pain. So 2nd or 3rd shot will finish the job.

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 11:20 AM
If a rifle is the firearm needed, give me something in 7.62X39 all day long.
As for the shotty, I think that if someone with body armor on got hit with a slug at 20ft or less that they will go down from the pain. So 2nd or 3rd shot will finish the job.


And then you will absolutely go to prison for a very long time if it is proven in court that you shot a man while he was laying on the ground and NOT posing an "immediate threat" to you.

Again, and I've made this point before, do you *really* want to rely on mere "pain" keeping him down, or do you actually want to incapacitate your intruder?

duenor
06-02-2008, 11:32 AM
DrJones, I respectfully point out that there is a bayonet lug on the Mossberg 590 A1 for precisely that reason ;)

duenor
06-02-2008, 11:33 AM
as for the m2hb...if i need to shoot someone with an m2 i will be going through their pockets for all the loose change to help pay for the ammo... i think it's up to nearly $5 a round now

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 12:18 PM
DrJones, I respectfully point out that there is a bayonet lug on the Mossberg 590 A1 for precisely that reason ;)



:D
.
.
.

mcubed4130
06-02-2008, 12:26 PM
...I didn't mean for this post to be a "what's the best weapon for SHTF," btw. It seems that some may have perceived this as a shotgun/rifle type debate. By no means what that the point. I plan on getting a rifle..Thus, having a 12 gauge, 223/308, and a .45...That should suffice for most SHTF scenarios...

The point, then, was to discuss if 00 buck and slugs are sufficient if SHTF considering just the weapon of a shotgun. Apparently, the two will suffice under most conditions, but as posted above, it seems that additional shots could prove to be a protean asset.

Ok... lets get back on topic all.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t316/mcubed4130/Quad_Assembled_op_800x796.jpg

OH sorry... that's not my shotgun...

:D

Had those quad mounted - M2HBs on the brain... Here we go. Nice little balls of #00 on the rear.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t316/mcubed4130/mossberg_short_range.jpg

-M3

ar15barrels
06-02-2008, 12:34 PM
Oh, since we are on the topic of ideal weapons of mass destruction.. here is my preferred home defense weapon

http://i25.tinypic.com/2ic0foi.jpg

A Tiki torch and a blindfolded drunk partygoer? :confused:

BillCA
06-02-2008, 12:40 PM
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I do not argue that the shotgun is anything less than a very formidable weapon and you raise many valid points, but I do not agree that it is undeniably superior to a .223 or .308 rifle at close range and for going against multiple adversaries as you claim.

I'll disagree with your disagreement. Especially at household distances.

Your alleged body-armor clad home invader is going to be hit with a fist sized cloud of #00 buckshot with a mass around 800 grains hustling at 1300 fps with a total of 3028 ft-lbs. Shots aimed towards the upper sternum are likely to have one or more pellets strike the throat or head. A slug will produce over 3000 ft-lbs in a .75" diameter area. If he's not wearing a trauma plate, you'll have to defibrillate his heart.

Without body armor, your invader will be DRT or disabled sufficiently to reduce his threat to near zero.

With multiple invaders, the shotgun has a slight tactical advantage in the shotshell's multiple projectiles. Where a single round is issued from the rifle, the shotgun's multiple pellets can impact multiple targets. It's only a slight advantage in CQB but it's there. At ranges of 15-30 yards it much more of an advantage.

In a SHTF situation, I think it would be fairly rare to encounter "armored" thugs. You'd more likely encounter opportunists who are going to rely on numbers and a few weapons to intimidate their victims. Those who are armored will be visible as such and shots aimed high or low will negate their armor advantage.

If "stuck" with a shotgun, I'd feel fine with the 250 rounds of #00 buck I have and the 100 rounds of rifled slug. At that point tactics change to use the shotgun to advantage within its performance envelope (inside 100 yds).

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 12:49 PM
I'll disagree with your disagreement. Especially at household distances.

Your alleged body-armor clad home invader is going to be hit with a fist sized cloud of #00 buckshot with a mass around 800 grains hustling at 1300 fps with a total of 3028 ft-lbs. Shots aimed towards the upper sternum are likely to have one or more pellets strike the throat or head. A slug will produce over 3000 ft-lbs in a .75" diameter area. If he's not wearing a trauma plate, you'll have to defibrillate his heart.

Without body armor, your invader will be DRT or disabled sufficiently to reduce his threat to near zero.

With multiple invaders, the shotgun has a slight tactical advantage in the shotshell's multiple projectiles. Where a single round is issued from the rifle, the shotgun's multiple pellets can impact multiple targets. It's only a slight advantage in CQB but it's there. At ranges of 15-30 yards it much more of an advantage.

In a SHTF situation, I think it would be fairly rare to encounter "armored" thugs. You'd more likely encounter opportunists who are going to rely on numbers and a few weapons to intimidate their victims. Those who are armored will be visible as such and shots aimed high or low will negate their armor advantage.

If "stuck" with a shotgun, I'd feel fine with the 250 rounds of #00 buck I have and the 100 rounds of rifled slug. At that point tactics change to use the shotgun to advantage within its performance envelope (inside 100 yds).


Sir, you know as well as I do that "hitting multiple targets" with one load out of a shotgun only happens in movies.

It is absolute bunk.

ar15barrels
06-02-2008, 12:51 PM
Your alleged body-armor clad home invader is going to be hit with a fist sized cloud of #00 buckshot with a mass around 800 grains hustling at 1300 fps with a total of 3028 ft-lbs. Shots aimed towards the upper sternum are likely to have one or more pellets strike the throat or head. A slug will produce over 3000 ft-lbs in a .75" diameter area. If he's not wearing a trauma plate, you'll have to defibrillate his heart.

800gr is over 1.8 ounces.
Are you shooting 3.5" magnum turkey loads, or a 10 gauge?

ar15barrels
06-02-2008, 12:53 PM
Sir, you know as well as I do that "hitting multiple targets" with one load out of a shotgun only happens in movies.

I routinely knock down multiple steel plates with a shotgun.
It's just a matter of getting yourself aligned to "edge" both targets with one shot.

These plates are small though and I doubt bad guys are going to line up for you like that.

1lostinspace
06-02-2008, 12:55 PM
I was wondering most shotguns indoors don't really open up to well do they?
I mean if your shooting across the room it's like a slug right?

mcubed4130
06-02-2008, 1:02 PM
I was wondering most shotguns indoors don't really open up to well do they?
I mean if your shooting across the room it's like a slug right?

Yes and no... across the room inside a house is like 3" to 5" pattern - depending on a number of things. Slug is well... 0.76" always :)

-M3

DrjonesUSA
06-02-2008, 1:04 PM
Yes and no... across the room inside a house is like 3" to 5" pattern - depending on a number of things. Slug is well... 0.76" always :)

-M3


I believe that a general rule of thumb is that a shotgun pattern opens approximately one inch for every yard it travels.

Is this correct?

ar15barrels
06-02-2008, 1:06 PM
I was wondering most shotguns indoors don't really open up to well do they?

Think 1 inch of spread per yard of distance with a cylinder bore.
If your room is 15' across, expect about a 5" spread.

mcubed4130
06-02-2008, 1:29 PM
I believe that a general rule of thumb is that a shotgun pattern opens approximately one inch for every yard it travels.

Is this correct?

Cylinder Bore - with a standard 18" or so barrel; yes... rule of thumb is 1" per 1 yard...

Variation will then be by shot type (weight/material), how many pellets, length of barrel, type of choke, etc...

Most people will then go into the hems and haws of - testing your particular barrel - with a particular load out - and seeing what the pattern looks like... I've noted after 7 yards; the rule of them may be greatly affected by this last factor.

As past 7 yards out to 15yards (longest distance at the indoor range I practice at) - I've had buckshot patterns vary from 10"-30" in diameter... depending on which manufacturer - and in some cases the same manufacturer but different batches... out of a 18.5" cylinder bore barrel.

From what I read (haven't tried it - as I don't own or have access to one) - a saw'd off shotgun; will do closer to 1" spread per foot.

Anyway - inside my own home - I'm hard pressed to find rooms larger than 12' or so in any direction I would take a shot; so... I did most of my testing between 3-5 yards.

But SHTF - doesn't always mean inside your home...

Example; my grandmothers place is surrounded by cyclone fence w/barb wire; at about 20'-50' distances from the house on different sides. If I had to deal with a group trying to scale the fence and cut the wire to let themselves and their buddies in... I'd be using buckshot and taking 7-15 yard shots through the fence. I wouldn't be worried about 1 shot 1 kill then... I'd be shooting for mass effect; as I'm rather sure at that distance if the group is close to each other - I'd be hitting multiple targets.

-M3

FlyingPen
06-02-2008, 1:58 PM
The biggest problems with the .223 arise because the enemy is either hit at ranges beyond what is truly effective for the .223, or because it is being fired out of too short a barrel - the M4 has a 14.5" barrel which many argue does not produce sufficient velocity to maximize the .223's terminal ballistics.

This is essentially what the article said.

The other huge fact at play here is that soldiers cannot use anything other than FMJ. The dramatic trauma the .223 produces when it fragments is well-proven and civilians can take full advantage of that by using hollow point ammunition.


Re: the M2 for home defense, absolutely!!!!! ;) :D

M193 in an M4 will fragment out to 100-125 yards. Almost all engagements are at around 100 yards.

Hollow point 5.56 is designed for taking down game with one clean shot so I wouldn't use that. I don't believe they are designed to fragment.

For home defense, shotguns rule but if I had to go out and survive out of my home, there is no doubt I would take a light M4 or 16" AR with a 22 bolt kit.

22 for sheer amount of ammo you can pack very lightly for hunting varmints and XM193 for if you have to defend yourself. While 308 and a PT-91 or FAL would be great, they're too heavy and the ammo is too heavy. I'd rather pack more supplies.

Shotguns have unique properties but aren't really practical for field use unless you're defending a fixed position with lots of cover.

trinydex
06-02-2008, 4:02 PM
It has a very low capacity (max of 8 or 9 rounds compared to minimum of 20 for any magazine-fed rifle)

do you live in california? while that may be true aren't you advocating the keeping of hi cap mags at the ready? in a shtf scenario where there is no more law you might get away with that, but for the every day assailant in your home, you're still going to the 20 rounder??? those assailants at night might be your local swat department with atf/doj

ar15barrels
06-02-2008, 4:06 PM
do you live in california? while that may be true aren't you advocating the keeping of hi cap mags at the ready?

Who said large capacity magazines were illegal in california?

I have dozens and dozens of large capacity magazines.
Just because you were not smart enough or old enough to have bought them, don't assume that other people did not get them. ;)

trinydex
06-02-2008, 4:10 PM
Who said large capacity magazines were illegal in california?

I have dozens and dozens of large capacity magazines.
Just because you were not smart enough or old enough to have bought them, don't assume that other people did not get them. ;)

i'm not saying they're illegal for you or him. but he is talkin' to a guy that is lookin' to buy a shotgun soon and a rifle in the FUTURE.

the alternative using 10 rounders, reloading with a bullet button isn't that fast... you'd have to have you a monster man build for fast reloads.

just qualifying stuff. and i was too young to get hicaps. sorry i used "you" in reference above, i should have said OP.

RAD-CDPII
06-02-2008, 5:38 PM
A shotgun may not penetrate body armor, but a 525gr slug will sure knock you on your *** and maybe knock you out? Anyone with experience or vids on this one?

Does anyone think that thugs are going to be using Body Armor in a SHTF situation? OOB or slugs in a 12 GA should work just fine. I prefer a .45 myself with a 12 GA and .223 to back it up.

trinydex
06-02-2008, 5:41 PM
i think with rappers talking about wearing vests all the time it's more and more likely that criminals will be trying to get their hands on body armor of all sorts.

saladtown
06-02-2008, 6:04 PM
A man was shot with a 12 gauge in my town early this morning. The failed assasin was apparently parked across a four lane street waiting for the guy to walk out of a market. The "sniper" (as some were calling him) hit him twice with birdshot. The victim was hardly hurt at all. Good thing the supermarket stocked bandaids. And yes, it was gang related.

duenor
06-02-2008, 6:51 PM
LOL when you send an assassin to go kill a guy with birdshot you know you are trying to cap the foo on a shoestring budget :rofl2:

ow, that hurts!
stop it!
i mean it!
cut it out! you could put somebody's eye out with that!

duenor
06-02-2008, 6:54 PM
AR15barrels:
The deadly weapon in question is the pink wiffle ball bat. Believe me, if you got hit by one of those you would remember it the next morning. It is a fearsome stick of sheer gayness

(me lunging blindfolded at a pinata at a friend's ME graduation party - the bat really does belong to a gay couple... i dont know why they have it)

-now back on topic-

you can easily hit more than one opponent with a shotgun. but you have to time the scissor kick just right

Utha Schleigle
06-02-2008, 11:16 PM
I tryied sluggs and OO buck shott. They worked well buttt sabots worked great. Most have a faster FPS at the muzzel and a dual duplex section (hollow point and then a hardened core rear section).

Unarmored person and sabots WOW ouchey.

Best newest body armored person - probably woukd not pentrate and leave a grape fruit sized bruize and broken bones.

Try a box of 12 gauge of sabots for fun.

I have sabots and buck shot staggered in HD mosserg 500. Also some #2 buck.

duenor
06-02-2008, 11:24 PM
sabots are expensive =(

BigKevLA
06-03-2008, 7:40 AM
I really doubt that you will find many thugs with body armor doing home invasion robbery jobs. That was probably one isolated incident!!! Most likely if your a victim of a home invasion robbery, somebody that has been to your home before is involved and know you have some worthwhile goodies. That being said, a shotgun will work, a rifle will work probably anything bigger than a .22 will get the job done. And if you're a member of calguns I sure that we ALL have more than enough to do the job.

viras
06-03-2008, 9:23 AM
Dr Jones - sir, I consider my google-fu to be quite strong, but perhaps yours is stronger...

I've searched for "body armor criminals", "body armor home invasion", "body armor crime", and these searches have yeilded me very few actual instances where the bad guys have had body armor. Most of the articles I came across were instances where the bad guys were busted by LEO wearing body armor, and one which was a mere speculation that bad guys were going to be stocking up on Body Armor as the technology gets better and prices drop.

Can you please elaborate as to where you obtained the information that "Body armor is becoming increasingly utilized by criminals, especially during home invasions"?

Jaiofspam
06-03-2008, 9:29 AM
if i was a bad guy i think i would spend money on a shottie, glock fotay or a duece duece instead of body armour :rolleyes:

DrjonesUSA
06-03-2008, 10:56 AM
Does anyone think that thugs are going to be using Body Armor in a SHTF situation? OOB or slugs in a 12 GA should work just fine. I prefer a .45 myself with a 12 GA and .223 to back it up.


Again, this is not conjecture, it is a fact that criminals have in some cases worn body armor while committing crimes, most notably home invasions.

The incidences of this are increasing.

Spend 2 minutes on Google and see for yourself.......

The truth will make you buy higher-caliber weapons. :D

DrjonesUSA
06-03-2008, 10:57 AM
Dr Jones - sir, I consider my google-fu to be quite strong, but perhaps yours is stronger...

I've searched for "body armor criminals", "body armor home invasion", "body armor crime", and these searches have yeilded me very few actual instances where the bad guys have had body armor. Most of the articles I came across were instances where the bad guys were busted by LEO wearing body armor, and one which was a mere speculation that bad guys were going to be stocking up on Body Armor as the technology gets better and prices drop.

Can you please elaborate as to where you obtained the information that "Body armor is becoming increasingly utilized by criminals, especially during home invasions"?


I will try to find & post the information I was referring to. May take a day or two.....election day is today!!!

ar15barrels
06-03-2008, 11:11 AM
it is a fact that criminals have in some cases worn body armor while committing crimes, most notably home invasions.

The incidences of this are increasing.

My google-fu is weak.
Perhaps you could just post a couple links to back this up?

BillCA
06-03-2008, 11:58 AM
Sir, you know as well as I do that "hitting multiple targets" with one load out of a shotgun only happens in movies.

It is absolute bunk.

Ahhh, no. It actually happens in real life.

Back in the 70's a buddy of mine (Staff Sgt) was living off base in kind of shoddy apartments. He had his 1911 and a Stoeger Coach gun for home defense. Just before 1 AM on Dec 21 ('76 I think) three guys started kicking in his door. In his BVDs he stood covering the door when they came in. His aim was from about 40-degrees to the left of the front door. First round was #00 buckshot. Suspect #1 was hit COM at approximately 18 feet with the full charge and was DRT. Second barrel had a load of #1 buckshot. Suspect #2 took 6 pellets to the upper chest and face and Suspect #3 stopped 7 pellets with his arm, face and neck. Suspect #3 was DRT. Three #1 buckshot pellets were recovered from the wood siding in the wall across the courtyard. Two of the three were armed with stolen guns - one with a Browning .380 and the other with a 2" S&W .38. The surviving suspect was charged with 2nd degree murder (2 counts), attempted murder and felon in possession. The DA took a sweated-out 48 hours to decide no charges would be filed against my Sgt buddy.

I should note that even though he "did the right thing" it was still traumatic. It took many hours of conversations with friends and base psychiatrists to get over the incident. Having to pay to replace the carpeting, repair and repaint the wall was also a hardship on him.

I'll grant you that he had the advantage of them "funnelling" through the door. He may have aimed high or rushed his second shot but it caught both of them just inside the door.

BillCA
06-03-2008, 12:09 PM
800gr is over 1.8 ounces.
Are you shooting 3.5" magnum turkey loads, or a 10 gauge?

12 Gauge 3" Magnum: 15 pellets 00 Buck

00 Buck pellets are .33" and nominally 53.8 grains each.
15 x 53.8 = 807 grains. (1.8 oz)

A 2 3/4" shell has 9 pellets for a total of 484.2 grains (1.1 oz).

ar15barrels
06-03-2008, 12:46 PM
12 Gauge 3" Magnum: 15 pellets 00 Buck

00 Buck pellets are .33" and nominally 53.8 grains each.
15 x 53.8 = 807 grains. (1.8 oz)

A 2 3/4" shell has 9 pellets for a total of 484.2 grains (1.1 oz).

The 3" 00 Buck I have all has 12 pellets.

mcubed4130
06-03-2008, 1:12 PM
The 3" 00 Buck I have all has 12 pellets.

You all - are a funny read...

Federal Premium 3" #00 is 15 pellet.
Winchester Supreme 2X 3" #00 is 15 pellet.

Federal Premium 3.5" #00 is 18 pellet.

-M3

ar15barrels
06-03-2008, 1:19 PM
You all - are a funny read...

Federal Premium 3" #00 is 15 pellet.
Winchester Supreme 2X 3" #00 is 15 pellet.

Federal Premium 3.5" #00 is 18 pellet.

I have S&B.
Maybe it's just over-length 2 3/4" as it won't fit in regular 2 3/4" shell caddies so I figured it was 3"...

duenor
06-03-2008, 5:24 PM
The truth will make you buy higher-caliber weapons. :D


I hope you mean higher-VELOCITY weapons, because it's kinda hard to think of where you would get a rifle bigger than 72-caliber, which is how big a 12-gauge slug is :eek:

unless you are thinking of
http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtweaks/WindowsLiveWriter/TimeKillerQuickChangeArtist_99DE/spud%5B5%5D.jpg

filipinopride
06-03-2008, 9:41 PM
Shot Info Firearm Baikal 12 gauge SxS 28" barrel IZH-43
Round Federal Power-Shok 3" magnum 00 buck
Distance 25 yds.
http://stoppingpower.info/index.php?title=12ga_buckshoot_CarDoor
this is a video of 12 gauge 00 buck going through a steel truck door at 25yds/75ft


http://stoppingpower.info/index.php?title=12_gauge_00_buckshot_vs_Front_Indo or_Walls 00 buck going through front indoor wall
same shotgun as the truck door video firing at 7yds/21ft im sure thats about the same distance you would shoot a thug breaking into your house

http://stoppingpower.info/index.php?title=12_gauge_00_buckshot_vs_Back_Indoo r_Walls
the walls are set up front and back to show the penetration of the rounds

http://stoppingpower.info/index.php?title=Indoor_Walls#Actual_Setup this is how they set it up

http://stoppingpower.info/index.php?title=12_gauge_7.5_shot_vs_IndoorWalls

even birdshot penetrated the first wall and did some damage to the back drywall but didnt penetrate all the way

BillCA
06-04-2008, 5:50 AM
Again, this is not conjecture, it is a fact that criminals have in some cases worn body armor while committing crimes, most notably home invasions.

The incidences of this are increasing.

Spend 2 minutes on Google and see for yourself.......

I did.
Out of the first 3-4 pages, I found 4 cases where an intruder was wearing a vest. One each in CA, FLA, MA and OH. There were several cases mentioned where the victims had a vest, worn or not. In at least 2 of the cases it was mentioned that the vests were stolen - including the CA case where the vest had a federal agency's name on it. At least two of the cases were drug related.

This is hardly a "wave" of increasing use of vests. It appears to me that it is something that occurs as opportunity presents itself. That is, a thug burglarizes a home or car and obtains a vest, then later uses it during a robbery. It's not like the thugs are seeking vests so they can later commit home invasion robberies.

bigthaiboy
06-10-2008, 1:50 AM
I have S&B.
Maybe it's just over-length 2 3/4" as it won't fit in regular 2 3/4" shell caddies so I figured it was 3"...


S&B 12 pellet 00 2 3/4" shells are in fact slightly oversized, and will not function in older guns like the Browning A-5 because of longer crimp style, but would work best in a shotgun chambered in 3" or 3.5".

Crusader
06-10-2008, 9:41 PM
If you're stockpiling for SHTF scenarios, you'll want a box or two of birdshot as well, in case you need to hunt bird for food.

For slugs, I have used Brenekke K.O. slugs and they were great. And for buckshot, try OO and #4.

Also, get 3" Magnum shells if your gun can handle them, they have a lot more punch than 2 3/4 or low-recoil rounds.

bigthaiboy
06-11-2008, 12:35 AM
I've had very good results with Nobel Sport 12 pellet 00.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=293300

I placed two tin cans sitting on the ground 12" apart from 8 yards away from a 20" barrelled Mossberg Persuader. One shot destroyed the can I was aiming at, and the other was untouched. My friends and I were surprised by the tightness of the pellet's grouping.

Noah
06-15-2008, 12:21 AM
I hope you mean higher-VELOCITY weapons, because it's kinda hard to think of where you would get a rifle bigger than 72-caliber, which is how big a 12-gauge slug is :eek:

unless you are thinking of
http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtweaks/WindowsLiveWriter/TimeKillerQuickChangeArtist_99DE/spud%5B5%5D.jpg

What is that thing intended to use as a projectile? Just whatever fits in the barrel or what? Is it a pneumatic Punt gun? I would like to see how level III body armor stands up to a Punt gun... lol