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View Full Version : FACT or FUD @Ammos Bros - Rifles and Detachable Magazines


AlexDD
05-30-2008, 8:22 PM
Ammo Bros has been great and I have purchased many items their since discovering the store. :) Today, while there, an employee told me something I had never heard before regarding detachable magazines and rifles. In essence, he told me that it was illegal if I took high capacity magazine that one possessed pre-2000 and inserted into a featureless build that it would be illegal. I further clarified thinking that he thought I was talking about inserting a magazine into a fixed magazine rifle with banned features. So to further clarify, I asked the following question:

“If one had possessed M1A 20 round magazines prior to 2000 and then purchased a M1A SOCOM in 2008 to add to one’s collection and that if that person then inserted this legal possessed magazine into the newly purchased 2008 M1A SOCOM, that that person would be committing a crime?” This example of course would work for Mini, Kel-Tec etc… or for that matter any featureless build.

He said that if one did not also own that rifle prior, that it was ILLEGAL.

I was a bit dumbfounded and he appeared very confident in his speech. He further mentioned that he based this knowledge from speaking to DOJ agent, LEO’s, FBI personnel … When I asked what law, he told me to look it up on the DOJ website and/or post on CALGUNS. I have been reading CALGUNS diligently and have never got the impression from all my research.

I have never spoke with this employee before on my many visits but I think he is their new gunsmith… So I discontinued our conversation in disbelief but respectfully and purchased my ammo.

So FACT or FUD? I believe it is FUD and will do my due diligence rereading the laws but want to know what the community believes. :confused:

If you believe is FACT, please post the law. Thank you.

Spitfire75
05-30-2008, 8:24 PM
FUD!

ke6guj
05-30-2008, 8:25 PM
FUD

Para
05-30-2008, 8:32 PM
FUD


FUD

Frijolito1988
05-30-2008, 8:34 PM
Hey by anychance are you the guy that was there maybe 2 weeks ago buying a Socom m1a and was dead set on a pistol grip?

but yeah its FUD, i also think i know which guy your talking about lol

AlexDD
05-30-2008, 8:40 PM
Nope wasn't me. I just got mine at Turner's with that 25% off memorial day weekend gift card.

ohsmily
05-30-2008, 8:42 PM
Why do people make up BS? Where do people get this crap? Someone should set those fools straight.

technique
05-30-2008, 8:44 PM
FUD

TheMan
05-30-2008, 8:56 PM
He further mentioned that he based this knowledge from speaking to DOJ agent, LEO’s, FBI personnel …


That was his mistake right there. He asked people that don't know CA laws. FBI deals with federal laws, and asking DOJ is only marginally better than asking a magic 8 ball, but a whole lot less convenient.

Prc329
05-30-2008, 8:56 PM
He was confused the matter. Not true. I wouldn't go as far as to say fud since they are pretty up to date. There are a couple of newish guys working there.

PIRATE14
05-30-2008, 8:59 PM
Lot people think along these same lines, I hear it all the time.......don't think it's FUD......

They don't know the laws like they should.......but not everyone hangs out at CALGUNs and is an expert........;)

odysseus
05-30-2008, 9:02 PM
Sounds like an employee selling firearms needs to bone up on some logic, or he knows about some codification of law no one else does.

NeoWeird
05-30-2008, 9:05 PM
Sounds like another poor sap who thinks the AWB is still in effect and/or that out state ban is identical to the Federal one.

RedDawn
05-30-2008, 9:07 PM
FUD

What a disappointment. I've done business with Ammo Brothers for a couple of years now, great guys. I expected a little more from them.

geeknow
05-30-2008, 9:11 PM
Why do people make up BS? Where do people get this crap? Someone should set those fools straight.

Hey bud, respectfully, I think you are off base on this one. I know each of those guys personally and am happy to vouch for their intentions.

I do not believe that they were "making up BS". Nor do i think they are "fools". Frankly, that is insulting and beneath this community.

I know that they are in regular contact with the DOJ, BATFE, LEO's, etc in a constant effort to provide us all with the goodies we love legally. They do not create rulings, nor do they interpret law. They only repeat what they are told. All of us can cite example of FUD received by DOJ, BATFE, etc. What the OP asked really should have been asked to legal counsel, or the DOJ, or the BATFE, and not some guy working the counter at Ammo Bros (or any other gun store). But he did. And they gave him the best answer they had.

Let's make this constructive;

Calgunners have proven time and again to be of the highest caliber (no pun intended) when it comes to law relating to our collective passion.

Turn the legal eagles loose on this one.

Let's find and post the law relating to this. I will personally walk it into Ammo Bros Monday morning and explain the gaff, and educate them on the subject. That way, a potential negative is turned into a resourceful positive.

Meanwhile, I think that you owe them an apology. respectfully.

technique
05-30-2008, 9:13 PM
He was confused the matter. Not true. I wouldn't go as far as to say fud since they are pretty up to date. There are a couple of newish guys working there.

I agree, could be a new hire.

blackberg
05-30-2008, 9:13 PM
Lot people think along these same lines, I hear it all the time.......don't think it's FUD......

They don't know the laws like they should.......but not everyone hangs out at CALGUNs and is an expert........;)

But they work at a gun shop, should they not know about gun laws?

how is it different from working at a boat dealer or pet store, you should know your product and the legalities of at least the basic questions, and mag cap questions are basic questions...

I was doing PPT a while back, and one of the owners told me I had to take my OLL (lower w/LPK only,no stock, no upper)home because I didnt have a mag in a BB'd lower, I asked him if had mags there...he says yes and gives me a crazy look...I ask him if can sell me one, and thinks about it for a sec and goes ahead...I didnt feel like arguing the whole attachable/detachable thing while doing a PPT, especially with someone that should know better.


-bb

RedDawn
05-30-2008, 9:15 PM
I agree, could be a new hire.

I have noticed some new faces there.

savageevo
05-30-2008, 9:21 PM
I was there a couple weeks ago and there are a few new guys there. I assure you that they were not up to speed on a lot of things. I went in there to ask if they had 1919 links and they thought I just landed from mars. Its funny because they were selling one there about six months ago.

geeknow
05-30-2008, 9:25 PM
I was there a couple weeks ago and there are a few new guys there. I assure you that they were not up to speed on a lot of things. I went in there to ask if they had 1919 links and they thought I just landed from mars. Its funny because they were selling one there about six months ago.

3 of the 4 guys that work the counter werent there 6 months ago. *edit to add; i remember that 1919. they didnt have links then either. *

PIRATE14
05-30-2008, 9:25 PM
But they work at a gun shop, should they not know about gun laws?

how is it different from working at a boat dealer or pet store, you should know your product and the legalities of at least the basic questions, and mag cap questions are basic questions...

-bb

California has some of most obscure and complicated gun laws......

Not the same as selling goldfish.....

Impossible for someone to know them all....especially a new guy...

Not saying that's how it should be but just being realistic.......

technique
05-30-2008, 9:27 PM
But they work at a gun shop, should they not know about gun laws?

how is it different from working at a boat dealer or pet store, you should know your product and the legalities of at least the basic questions, and mag cap questions are basic questions...

I was doing PPT a while back, and one of the owners told me I had to take my OLL (lower w/LPK only,no stock, no upper)home because I didnt have a mag in a BB'd lower, I asked him if had mags there...he says yes and gives me a crazy look...I ask him if can sell me one, and thinks about it for a sec and goes ahead...I didnt feel like arguing the whole attachable/detachable thing while doing a PPT, especially with someone that should know better.


-bb

There are plenty of places out there that don't even mess with OLL's. My shop will but not every one who works there knows all the laws. OLL aren't the only products sold. Normally if someone has a question regarding OLL's, they are pointed in my direction, or the direction of my budy (THE 0NE)(also known as the store manager) for assistance. Often times people like to give an opinion rather then a factual statement.

TonyNorCal
05-30-2008, 9:53 PM
Total and unmitigated FUD.

I also call BS on him having being told this by the FBI and ATJ. Both are Federal and have nothing to do with spreading FUD about California Law. And, if by some farfetched chance any FBI agents have time to be spreading FUD about CA law then they should be fired immediately and replaced with a new hire who'd focus on import things like preventing another terrorist attack.

I do believe it's possible someone at the DOJ lead him to believe this. For, we all know that rather than clarify and objectively enforce CA's complicated firearms as they're supposed to, the DOJ is chief among the FUD producers.

I was actually told the same nonsense by someone employed in the firearms business. It's amazing how some people who make guns their living can be so dense and remain so uninformed. Maybe I'm odd, but I'd think if something is one's profession then he/she would make an effort to understand it and keep abreast of the issues involved. Also, in this case we're not talking about delving into OLL issues (which might take a whole afternoon to understand), rather we're talking basic gun law.

tankerman
05-30-2008, 10:10 PM
Hey bud, respectfully, I think you are off base on this one. I know each of those guys personally and am happy to vouch for their intentions.

I do not believe that they were "making up BS". Nor do i think they are "fools". Frankly, that is insulting and beneath this community.

I know that they are in regular contact with the DOJ, BATFE, LEO's, etc in a constant effort to provide us all with the goodies we love legally. They do not create rulings, nor do they interpret law. They only repeat what they are told. All of us can cite example of FUD received by DOJ, BATFE, etc. What the OP asked really should have been asked to legal counsel, or the DOJ, or the BATFE, and not some guy working the counter at Ammo Bros (or any other gun store). But he did. And they gave him the best answer they had.

Let's make this constructive;

Calgunners have proven time and again to be of the highest caliber (no pun intended) when it comes to law relating to our collective passion.

Turn the legal eagles loose on this one.

Let's find and post the law relating to this. I will personally walk it into Ammo Bros Monday morning and explain the gaff, and educate them on the subject. That way, a potential negative is turned into a resourceful positive.

Meanwhile, I think that you owe them an apology. respectfully.

The "Legal Eagles" have been loose on this for years now. Use the "Search" feature at the top of every page.

What exactly does "vouch for thier intentions mean" when it comes to legal advice? Well meaning + misinformation = BS

technique
05-30-2008, 10:13 PM
Also, in this case we're not talking about delving into OLL issues (which might take a whole afternoon to understand), rather we're talking basic gun law.


True, just added that as a comparison. However I do believe in this case we are speaking about some one who is new to this particular shop, and may or may not plan on making guns a profession. You can't trash a shop for a simple misinterpretation of the law from one employee...IMHO

TonyNorCal
05-30-2008, 10:18 PM
True, just added that as a comparison. However I do believe in this case we are speaking about some one who is new to this particular shop, and may or may not plan on making guns a profession. You can't trash a shop for a simple misinterpretation of the law from one employee...IMHO

True. I wasn't trashing the shop. I was careful to include 'some' in my sentence and the reference was general. I've never been to Ammo Bros but I've read lots of good things about them here. If I were in SoCal I'd go.

And, I think the gun profession is full of good guys (and gals) who work hard and provide good service. I am also sure many of them have to deal with rude and unreasonably demanding customers:p.

That said, it's not the people in this thread who owe an apology. If anyone owes an apology it's the employee at Ammo Bros. He could log in and post a simple 'hey, I had it wrong, sorry' and all would be good:).

technique
05-30-2008, 10:24 PM
http://www.gangsterbb.net/emoticons/cheers.gif

chickenfried
05-30-2008, 10:26 PM
You can trash a shop for not training their employees to say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure"...

AlexDD
05-30-2008, 10:41 PM
I will continue to shop and support Ammo Bros and wish we had more stores that sold everything I want to put in my collection (SIG556, PTR91, AK's, Saigas, etc..)

I posted this because his comments were so out of place for all the 99% other times I went to Ammo Bros. What was odd to me, was that he offered the information, I didn't ask it, when I made a comment on a featureless potential build. Just a newbie, the "fear" took me back and I wanted to reassure myself.

I am glad this board exists and I am glad their are stores like Ammo Bros.

ohsmily
05-30-2008, 11:08 PM
Turn the legal eagles loose on this one.

Let's find and post the law relating to this. I will personally walk it into Ammo Bros Monday morning and explain the gaff, and educate them on the subject. That way, a potential negative is turned into a resourceful positive.

How can you show them a law that doesn't exist. Pretty difficult to prove a negative in this case. You would have to read through the entirety of the penal code governing long guns, AWs, and high capacity magazines. The proper approach would be to ask them to support their statement by citing to the Penal Code. However, my guess is they will tell you not to tell them how to do their job and they know what they are talking about. Or maybe their supervisory would set them straight (unless he is the one who told them the BS). I don't know.
It doesn't take a "legal eagle" (always thought that phrase was kind of silly) to figure out that there is no law restricting what they talked about. It is MADE UP NONSENSE.

Meanwhile, I think that you owe them an apology. respectfully.

No, they do. How many people have they misinformed who have then misinformed someone else and it spreads creating more FUD. They owe the apology, not I. The sales people need to learn to say "I DON'T KNOW" or even "I AM NOT SURE."

blackberg
05-31-2008, 12:01 AM
California has some of most obscure and complicated gun laws......

Not the same as selling goldfish.....

Impossible for someone to know them all....especially a new guy...

Not saying that's how it should be but just being realistic.......

I know that, but dont you think that Ammo Bros, and other shops (like yours)that deal in OLLs know about calguns.net? the only reason they are selling OLLs, and making money of the whole movement, is because of the efforts of the community on this site.

I would think that it would be smart of management to have to rookies come to this site and get their free "training" on the laws and complexities of dealing with this stuff, since we have proved time and time again that the community here knows more than the 3-letter agencies.

I am not saying that everyone here is an expert and correct 100% of the time, but as a whole we have hashed and rehashed most of the common questions.

The FUD can be minimized...and there is no need to spread it...:cool:


-blackberg

tankerman
05-31-2008, 12:10 AM
refrain from using certain "questionable" items.

They are under an incredible amount of pressure, yet there has not been a decrease in the quality of reloads, I have never had a problem with one of their reloads in numerous calibers, (which is in the thousands that I have fired), yet when I purchase reloaded (blue box) Black Hills ammo I have primers literally falling out.

Please expand on "questionable items. What are the questionable items?


So you saying ammo bros reloads are better than Black Hills?

badicedog
05-31-2008, 1:21 AM
I know who you are referring to. This same person told me that he could not accept my AR OLL build without a magazine attached because I was breaking the law with my rifle in that configuration, esencially making it an assault weapon without the magazine in it. That I should never have the magazine dettached not even for transportation or safety purposes.

AlphaDog
05-31-2008, 1:34 AM
Why does it seem that cases like this are becoming more frequent?
When i first enquired with my FFL about transferring an OLL lower, he said no problem, when i went to actually purchase the darn thing, he tells me he no longer deals with OLL's. What gives?

l_Z_l
05-31-2008, 1:44 AM
i don't understand y some people aren't ok w/ not knowing. they always seem to throw around a "know it all attitude" even when they don't know what's right and wrong. are they afraid to ask someone if it's questionable? wouldn't asking people who know and confirming be better than spreading some stupid BS that might turn someone away from an otherwise good store? i guess good help is hard to find these days.

tankerman
05-31-2008, 6:51 AM
I'm sure we will be hearing more from the apologist and appeaser crowd.

gd-bh
05-31-2008, 7:01 AM
seems to me the easiest way to clear all of this up is for CA DOJ to publish something like the flowchart that is available on this fine site. However, from reading many topics about CA DOJ, I won't be holding my breath that something like that's gonna happen any time soon..;)

motorhead
05-31-2008, 7:19 AM
CA DOJ=souce of all FUD. unfortunatly, private business can claim the earth is flat. posting such here let's those new to the hobby know that such is not necessarily the case in the real world.
some just love to spread misinformation. one of my aunts told me one time of a new ca vc law that made barefoot driving illegal.

geeknow
05-31-2008, 7:52 AM
[QUOTE=ohsmily;1247829]However, my guess is they will tell you not to tell them how to do their job and they know what they are talking about....I don't know.QUOTE]

Clearly you dont know them, and have never spoken with them before, right? Had you done so, you would know (like I DO) that they are quite open to having this type of discussion.

Like i said in my 1st post. Why not turn a negative into a positive? Give them a call, talk to them. You will be pleasantly surprised. In any case, I will do so myself as well. This has gotten blown WAY out of proportion. The OP has stated that 99% of his other interactions with them have been positive. Why isnt there 99 other posts by him singing their praises? Keep it all in perspective, guy. We are all in this together. If there was bad advice given, correct it.

tankerman
06-01-2008, 5:54 PM
Where's Dustin? Why doesn't he chime in on this subject?

After all it is his shop.

I'd like to know his store's policy and view on this issue.

duenor
06-01-2008, 6:06 PM
It may just be a new employee who is trying to BS a little in order to sell the guy some 10round M1A magazines. "Yessir, using those mags you got there would be illegal... now these, these are 100% ge-u-wine bonafide legal products..."

;)

blackberg
06-01-2008, 6:35 PM
It may just be a new employee who is trying to BS a little in order to sell the guy some 10round M1A magazines. "Yessir, using those mags you got there would be illegal... now these, these are 100% ge-u-wine bonafide legal products..."

;)

Maybe...but at the same time hurt the reputation of the whole shop:rolleyes:

-bb

dfletcher
06-01-2008, 6:49 PM
I don't have a problem with a gun store owner or salesman saying "I don't know the answer, I'll try to find the answer or find someone who does know the answer". Now hopefully that answer isn't given when a customer asks if 38 Specials can be fired in a 357, but on our complicated gun laws I think it's acceptable from time to time. I do have a problem with a salesman making an assertion and, rather than finding back up documentation themself tells the customer to find it on their own. It seems to me the fellow making the assertion has the responsibility to provide supporting documentation.

duenor
06-01-2008, 7:16 PM
Now hopefully that answer isn't given when a customer asks if 38 Specials can be fired in a 357,


The reverse is not always true... i know you know that but it helps to mention that for the public...

Tactical Support
06-02-2008, 9:04 AM
Ammo Bros has been great and I have purchased many items their since discovering the store. :) Today, while there, an employee told me something I had never heard before regarding detachable magazines and rifles. In essence, he told me that it was illegal if I took high capacity magazine that one possessed pre-2000 and inserted into a featureless build that it would be illegal. I further clarified thinking that he thought I was talking about inserting a magazine into a fixed magazine rifle with banned features. So to further clarify, I asked the following question:

“If one had possessed M1A 20 round magazines prior to 2000 and then purchased a M1A SOCOM in 2008 to add to one’s collection and that if that person then inserted this legal possessed magazine into the newly purchased 2008 M1A SOCOM, that that person would be committing a crime?” This example of course would work for Mini, Kel-Tec etc… or for that matter any featureless build.


He said that if one did not also own that rifle prior, that it was ILLEGAL.

I was a bit dumbfounded and he appeared very confident in his speech. He further mentioned that he based this knowledge from speaking to DOJ agent, LEO’s, FBI personnel … When I asked what law, he told me to look it up on the DOJ website and/or post on CALGUNS. I have been reading CALGUNS diligently and have never got the impression from all my research.

I have never spoke with this employee before on my many visits but I think he is their new gunsmith… So I discontinued our conversation in disbelief but respectfully and purchased my ammo.

So FACT or FUD? I believe it is FUD and will do my due diligence rereading the laws but want to know what the community believes. :confused:

If you believe is FACT, please post the law. Thank you.

First and foremost A thanks you to Alex for helping to clarify this incorrect information that had been passed to me by the people who should be in the know.

Also Alex I apologize to you for passing the incorrect information to you. Next time you are in the shop give me a shout, so I can personally apologize to you!

As for the others here that also helped and gave good information Thank You for clearing the Stale Air. There are others here that seem to be quick on the keyboard to condemn and assume judgments.

This was not a policy of Ammo Bros, It was information given to me by the authorities listed above and I took it as Gospel. As I stated I stand corrected. Also everyone in the shop is now correctly informed.

Thanks Again.

BTW No one was trying to Push or pump the sales on 10 rd magazines!!

1064chubbs
06-02-2008, 9:19 AM
FUD

Vin496
06-02-2008, 9:33 AM
FUD

LMAO, thanks for jumping in there and setting it all straight.



Do people read threads, before they post? I wonder.

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:34 AM
BTW No one was trying to Push or pump the sales on 10 rd magazines!!

We know, I was just messing with y'all. Hence the little winky smilie.
We all make goofs... I've stuck my foot in my own mouth quite a few times... if I'm lucky it's only my own mouth... sometimes I manage to stuff it down a few others as well, and not in a good way

Tactical Support
06-02-2008, 9:39 AM
We know, I was just messing with y'all. Hence the little winky smilie.
We all make goofs... I've stuck my foot in my own mouth quite a few times... if I'm lucky it's only my own mouth... sometimes I manage to stuff it down a few others as well, and not in a good way

No Problem :D

hoozaru
06-02-2008, 10:21 AM
probably a new guy who doesn't know wut he is talking about

USN CHIEF
06-02-2008, 10:35 AM
Tactical Support, ya'll have my respect from now on.... It shows what a great shop you are. Thank you for posting.

AlexDD
06-02-2008, 5:55 PM
First and foremost A thanks you to Alex for helping to clarify this incorrect information that had been passed to me by the people who should be in the know.

Also Alex I apologize to you for passing the incorrect information to you. Next time you are in the shop give me a shout, so I can personally apologize to you!

As for the others here that also helped and gave good information Thank You for clearing the Stale Air. There are others here that seem to be quick on the keyboard to condemn and assume judgments.

This was not a policy of Ammo Bros, It was information given to me by the authorities listed above and I took it as Gospel. As I stated I stand corrected. Also everyone in the shop is now correctly informed.

Thanks Again.

BTW No one was trying to Push or pump the sales on 10 rd magazines!!

Thank you.

I think Ammo Bros is a great place and glad that all is resolved. I will definitely stop by and continue to support the shop with business and encourage others to do so. Although I am new to posting to any type of public computer bulletin board, I glad that there is a community forum such as this to broach such topics and will continue to learn from its postings as well as how to post topics. :)

ohsmily
06-02-2008, 7:07 PM
I appreciate the favorable response from "Tactical Support" and think it reflects very well on him to admit a mistake (albeit a small one), correct the FUD, and move on.

Don't take the DOJs word when it comes to the law. Yes, I know you have to deal with their "policies" on a daily basis and they are the final word on their own policies. But, when it comes to the actual law, there is only one right answer. A little quick research, or even a thread here on CalGuns will likely clarify any information you get from DOJ.

Thanks again.

duenor
06-02-2008, 7:40 PM
Welcome to the board Tactical.
We over here at Entreprise like you guys too. ;)

Tactical Support
06-02-2008, 9:29 PM
Welcome to the board Tactical.
We over here at Entreprise like you guys too. ;)

Thanks, We like you good folks over there also.

PIRATE14
06-02-2008, 9:41 PM
Thanks, We like you good folks over there also.

OH.....JEEZ............ it's a love fest...........XXXXXOOOOs

tazmanian devil dog
06-02-2008, 9:45 PM
ABSOLUTE FUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imbeciles!!!

ke6guj
06-02-2008, 9:50 PM
More people not bothering to read the entire thread before they post.

Tactical Support
06-02-2008, 9:55 PM
OH.....JEEZ............ it's a love fest...........XXXXXOOOOs


Hey Big Guy We like you too !;)

duenor
06-02-2008, 9:55 PM
Pirate's jealous

It's ok, come over and I'm sure Matt will be more than willing to give you a big hug
http://i30.tinypic.com/20kb1va.jpg

after which ill tap you with the staff of pinkish delight
http://i25.tinypic.com/2ic0foi.jpg

PIRATE14
06-02-2008, 9:57 PM
Hey Big Guy We like you too !;)

I am all tingly.........

JesseXXX
06-02-2008, 11:13 PM
There's a lot of new faces there so some training might be needed...but I enjoy going to Ammo Bros, nice people...Darren and Dustin are very cool...and not "stuck-up"....

Jesse!