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exon111
05-27-2008, 9:19 PM
What's the best 5.56 anti personnel round? I just read that article about how m855 doesn't have very much stopping power and I think it might be a good idea to stock up on a second type of SHTF ammo. I found some $2 dollar a piece hollow point rounds, but does anyone know if there is a cheaper kind? $2 seems quite excessive.

mecam
05-27-2008, 9:25 PM
I reload my own home defense rounds using 77gr HPBT.

PIRATE14
05-27-2008, 9:30 PM
What's the best 5.56 anti personnel round? I just read that article about how m855 doesn't have very much stopping power and I think it might be a good idea to stock up on a second type of SHTF ammo. I found some $2 dollar a piece hollow point rounds, but does anyone know if there is a cheaper kind? $2 seems quite excessive.

Look at Hornady VMAX.......

Oh, and don't believe everything you read.......;)

Timberwolf
05-27-2008, 9:35 PM
What's the best 5.56 anti personnel round?

A well placed one

CSACANNONEER
05-27-2008, 9:36 PM
Barnes Xtreme would be in the top few.

PIRATE14
05-27-2008, 9:38 PM
The most effective 5.56mm antipersonnel round is the one that hits the CNS.

One in each eye socket.......works well........

One in the head....two in the chest......

If they would only hold still........it'd be much easier.......;)

exon111
05-27-2008, 9:39 PM
Look at Hornady VMAX.......

Oh, and don't believe everything you read.......;)

What's better, the VMAX 50 grain or 60 grain? 60 grain seems logical but I just want to double check.

Jicko
05-27-2008, 9:40 PM
What's the best 5.56 anti personnel round? I just read that article about how m855 doesn't have very much stopping power and I think it might be a good idea to stock up on a second type of SHTF ammo. I found some $2 dollar a piece hollow point rounds, but does anyone know if there is a cheaper kind? $2 seems quite excessive.

Mk262Mod1 (BHA's 77gr SMK HPBT)

It is proven to be quite effective with from 10" SBRs to 14.5" M4s and to 18" Mk12 SPRs. (you would need a 1x8 or 1x7 barrel tho)

exon111
05-27-2008, 9:42 PM
Mk262Mod1 (BHA's 77gr SMK HPBT)

It is proven to be quite effective with from 10" SBRs to 14.5" M4s and to 18" Mk12 SPRs. (you would need a 1x8 or 1x7 barrel tho)

Looked at those, but they are also pretty pricey. I like the VMAX. 50 or 60 grain?

PIRATE14
05-27-2008, 9:44 PM
What's better, the VMAX 50 grain or 60 grain? 60 grain seems logical but I just want to double check.

Heavier the better......pretty sure they make a 55gr as well......moly-coated for stainless barrels.....not that it's more effective, easier to clean...

Best not to worry too much about these things.......spend a lot of time shootin.....you'll become more effective and so will your rifle....;)

bwiese
05-27-2008, 9:46 PM
55gr XM193 works for me.

exon111
05-27-2008, 9:57 PM
Heavier the better......pretty sure they make a 55gr as well......moly-coated for stainless barrels.....not that it's more effective, easier to clean...

Best not to worry too much about these things.......spend a lot of time shootin.....you'll become more effective and so will your rifle....;)

Thanks for the info, I think I'll go with those. The price is quite reasonable.

Ten Rounder
05-27-2008, 9:59 PM
What's the best 5.56 anti personnel round? I just read that article about how m855 doesn't have very much stopping power

Do a search. It is called the 6.8 SPC. The article hinted on needing a better cartridge and failed to mention the work that has been done to date on the R&D, and testing. It is being used in Iraq and Afghanistan but you will not get a confirmation about it. This would require major minor changes of only barrels, bolts and mags on the M4 platform. The M240 would require and upgrade too. Then there is the whole supply chain thing and the funding involved.

You get hit with the 6.8 SPC, you are going DOWN! I'll keep the 5.56 for the Mini-14 girl's gun platform.

E. Fudd
05-27-2008, 10:18 PM
55gr XM193 works for me.

+1. For SHTF bulk stockpile, the 55 gr. M-193 or XM-193 5.56mm is hard to beat. Better wound ballistics than M855. Cheaper cost makes it easier to stock up on a couple of thousand rounds before they start banning bulk ammo sales.

Mk262 77 gr., if you can afford it/find it and have a 1/7 twist barrel.

Likewise, 75 or 77 gr. .223 Rem.

C.G.
05-27-2008, 10:21 PM
You get hit with the 6.8 SPC, you are going DOWN!

Now, that is a very bold statement. Speaking from experience?

1lostinspace
05-27-2008, 11:21 PM
75 gr Hornady will to the trick

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/75_tap_gel.jpg

and so will the 77SMK
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/77grmain.jpg

ZOMBIEHUNTER
05-27-2008, 11:27 PM
i keep 75grn hornady tap for my mini 14 i used to like nosler ballistic tips though

J_Rock
05-27-2008, 11:42 PM
I would advise against using hornady v-max ballistic tipped bullets. They do not provide enough penetration ie they fail the 12" FBI penetration criteria

J_Rock
05-27-2008, 11:47 PM
Okay, from best to worst:

1. Loads using the Nosler 77gr or Hornady 75gr OTM bullet. While these bullets may be slightly less accurate *in some rifles* than the Sierra MK, they offer better wounding capability. These bullets maximize terminal ballistic performance AND they extend fragmentation range over other loads, and even provide *some* fragmentation range from 10" barrels. These bullets require 1:8 or tighter twist barrels, though they may work in SOME 1:9 barrels.

- Hornady 75gr TAP (5.56 load)
- Hornady 75gr TAP or TAP-PD (.223 load)
- Black Hills loads with 75gr Hornady (.223)
- (no known factory load using the Nosler bullet)

2. Loads using the Sierra 77gr MK. Like all MK bullets, this one doesn't start to yaw until it passes through several inches of flesh, resulting in a longer "neck" area of the wound profile, and thus being rated slightly lower than the Nosler or Hornady bullets.

- Black Hills Mk262 Mod1 (5.56, cosmetic seconds are available)
- Black Hills 77gr Sierra loads (.223)
- Federal 77gr Sierra (.223)


3. Loads using the 68gr Hornady OTM. Note: barrel length needs to be 14.5" or longer; these will not have enough velocity to fragment from a 10" barrel and only a couple of yards from an 11.5" barrel. 1:9 or faster twist required.

- Hornady 68gr Match (.223)
- Black Hills 68gr Hornady (.223)

4. Loads using the 69gr Sierra MK. Note: barrel length needs to be 14.5" or longer; these will not have enough velocity to fragment from a 10" barrel and only a couple of yards from an 11.5" barrel. 1:9 or faster twist required.

- Federal 69gr Sierra (.223)
- Black Hills 69gr Sierra (.223)

5. Loads using Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw bullets. The 62gr performs a bit better than the 55gr, but the 62gr bullet is ONLY available in the LEO-only Federal Tactical line. As a bonded-core bullet, these are excellent in situations with an intermediate barrier, and are the #1 performers when having to shoot through glass. Note: these soft-point bullets have an exposed lead tip and cannot be rechambered more than a few times. May not feed reliably in some rifles.

Federal Tactical 62gr TBBC (.223)
Federal Tactical 55gr TBBC (.223)
Federal Premium 55gr TBBC (.223)


6. Loads using the Winchester 64gr PowerPoint bullet. Note: these soft-point bullets have an exposed lead tip and cannot be rechambered more than a few times. May not feed reliably in some rifles. 1:10 or faster twist required.

- Winchester Supreme PowerPoint Plus (.223)
- Winchester Super-X PowerPoint (.223)


7. M193-class ammo, 55gr FMJ-BT bullet. True M193 ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:12 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M193 (genuine surplus M193; no longer available)
- Federal XM193 (seconds) or XM193PD (thirds)
- Winchester Q3131 (seconds)
- Winchester Q3131A (manufactured by IMI)
- IMI M193
- PMC, '98 and earlier
- South African M1Ax in battlepacks

8. M855-class ammo, 62gr FMJ-BT bullet with mild steel penetrator in the nose. True M193 ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:10 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Winchester M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Federal XM855 (seconds) or XM855PD (thirds)
- Canadian IVI (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- British SS-109


This list should give you an idea of what is preferred, and in what order. Obviously, many of the loads at the top are quite a bit more expensive than the loads further down (though the TBBC loads are by far the most expensive), but if you're looking just at performance, then this should be your guideline.

J_Rock
05-27-2008, 11:47 PM
Loads To Avoid

Anything loaded with a varmint bullet; all varmint bullets in this caliber will underpenetrate from all guns. This means NO VMax bullets (including TAP loads), NO Nosler/Combined Technologies "Ballistic Tip" bullets, and so on. Varmint bullets were designed for animals no larger than 60 lbs., with the lighter bullets being designed for even smaller animals. They are NOT combat bullets, regardless of marketing to the contrary.

Any frangible bullet load. Frangible bullets are designed for short-range training, where shooting standard bullets at reactive steel targets would be (more of) a safety hazard. Usually, they are made from powdered lead or tungsten alloy inside a gilding metal jacket. They are designed to disintegrate when striking steel plates, but they are NOT designed to (nor do they accidentally) fragment in flesh.

"Armor Piercing" bullets. It is incredibly unlikely that anyone outside of the military will be able to put their hands on a single round of TRUE AP ammo in 5.56, as M995 AP ammo is a speciality item that is rarely issued to anyone but SOCOM troops, and then only on SAW belts, and only when specially requested for a specific mission. It is very expensive and in short supply, and it was designed primarily to disable equipment, NOT for wounding. Since the bullet will not fragment, it is a poor performer with regards to wound profile. This would hold true for any all-steel core or solid copper bullet as well.

JPglee1
05-27-2008, 11:59 PM
8. M855-class ammo, 62gr FMJ-BT bullet with mild steel penetrator in the nose.
- British SS-109


This list should give you an idea of what is preferred.

So KORG 92 / Radway Green or similar "SS109" is junk then, eh??

What about SHTF/Survival where a BEAR or similar thick skinned animal might be present....

What about SHTF/Survival/etc for the SS109 against hard type targets? Is it any better than M193/55 gr in this role?


THANKS

J

J_Rock
05-28-2008, 12:05 AM
So KORG 92 / Radway Green or similar "SS109" is junk then, eh??

What about SHTF/Survival where a BEAR or similar thick skinned animal might be present....

What about SHTF/Survival/etc for the SS109 against hard type targets? Is it any better than M193/55 gr in this role?


THANKS

J

Against large animals where maximum penetration is a very important factor I would choose


Federal Tactical 62gr TBBC (.223)


Again these same bullets are vert effective against what you would call "hard targets" such as cars. They will pass through the front and out of rear of car with minimal deflection granted you dont hit the engine block.

Against concrete or other masonry targets, mild steel perhaps M855 offers better performance

randy
05-28-2008, 4:19 AM
JP if you are shooting a bear with an AR you brought the wrong gun.

When ammo questions come up I remember what a friend of mine told me when I asked him if he wanted me to ship him some HP for his 9mm in IRAQ.

Ball kills and I don't shoot anybody once. Same holds true for the 223. Don't shoot anybody once and expect them to stop. FMJ ammo is better going through glass and cars too.

J_Rock
05-28-2008, 4:43 AM
JP if you are shooting a bear with an AR you brought the wrong gun.

When ammo questions come up I remember what a friend of mine told me when I asked him if he wanted me to ship him some HP for his 9mm in IRAQ.

Ball kills and I don't shoot anybody once. Same holds true for the 223. Don't shoot anybody once and expect them to stop. FMJ ammo is better going through glass and cars too.

Actually against glass and cars bonded SPs prove superior to FMJs

Sunwolf
05-28-2008, 7:39 AM
Nosler partition 60gr.

1lostinspace
05-28-2008, 8:26 AM
So KORG 92 / Radway Green or similar "SS109" is junk then, eh??

What about SHTF/Survival where a BEAR or similar thick skinned animal might be present....

What about SHTF/Survival/etc for the SS109 against hard type targets? Is it any better than M193/55 gr in this role?


THANKS

J

they are not junk but do not meet the M855 standard in FPS

1lostinspace
05-28-2008, 8:29 AM
Here what I have loaded in my mags

reloads Hornady 75 gr 5.56mm fps using 25.2 gr Varget for soft targets
and M855 for car armor or anything else that needs penetration robots you name it.

The cool thing is that they both have some what the same POI out of my gun.

randy
05-28-2008, 8:57 AM
I don't know about the bonded softpoint against FMJ I'm sure you're correct. But doesn't the military use 62 grain steel core? I guess I didn't make that clear.

jakjakman
05-28-2008, 11:56 AM
A big +1 for the 5.56 75gr BTHP Hornady TAP.

Steyr_223
05-28-2008, 2:29 PM
55gr XM193 works for me too..

FlyingPen
05-28-2008, 2:42 PM
I heard a rumor that XM193 is reloaded ammo since it's just used for training... false?

jb7706
05-28-2008, 3:39 PM
FWIW there is a pretty detailed write-up relevant to this thread at http://ammo.ar15.com/

J_Rock
05-28-2008, 4:06 PM
I heard a rumor that XM193 is reloaded ammo since it's just used for training... false?

False. Its true 5.56 ammo loaded to NATO spec

tiger222
05-28-2008, 6:55 PM
+1 on XM193

-hanko
05-28-2008, 7:24 PM
You get hit with the 6.8 SPC, you are going DOWN! I'll keep the 5.56 for the Mini-14 girl's gun platform.
ROTFLMAO:rolleyes:

I'd say you'll go down if you get hit by anything .223 or 6.8 or Grendel etc., far more dependent on where your hit v. by what.

I'll re-ask the question...is this your personal experience or something you saw on the web??:sleeping:

-hanko

1lostinspace
05-28-2008, 8:24 PM
Most rounds in .223 other than M855 will have good results.
The reason that M855 fails to stop is some troops are using shorter barrels lacking the 2700+FPS past 100 yards needed to yaw over and fragment.
Also having a 1:7 will stabilize the round and will sometimes fail to yaw there for never fragmenting and acting more like an Ice pick. The M855 was designed for penetrating armor,helmets,magazine packs that sort of thing not skinny little insurgents. You will never hear lack of stopping power in Nam due to a 20" barrel and a 55gr/ M193 at 3250 fps with 1:14-1:12 rate of twist will yaw over and frag out to about 150-200 yards.

When it comes to shooting someone wearing lite armor or in a car the M855 works great

exon111
05-28-2008, 10:17 PM
Okay, you guys have changed my opinion on the v-max. I'm thinking I'll go with the Hornady 75 gr hollow points.

akjunkie
05-29-2008, 10:31 AM
here is the New Ammo-oracle. i'm surprised 4 pages of replies and no one referred to this link. the holy grail of 223 info.

http://ammo.ar15.com/AR15_Ammo_FAQnRules/index.htm

saki302
05-30-2008, 5:39 AM
Haha- yep! a 20" barrel in 1:12 with a 55gr bullet is a recipe for disaster (for the other guy!).

-Dave

Okami
05-30-2008, 8:14 AM
A well placed one
+1
And there you go. :chris: