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jfdodge
01-21-2015, 5:16 PM
I'm new to the c&r obsession, but going to dive into it. What constitutes a c&r pistol? I
From what I've been able to find, rifles and shotguns it's older than 50 years. I've been looking at some ww2 era remington rand 1911's and wonder if those would fall into the c&r category. Thank in advance for the help.

emcon5
01-21-2015, 5:47 PM
50+ years or on the ATF list.

More info here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

They are except from the safe handgun roster, but not from the other asinine CA requirements regarding handguns.

81turbota
01-21-2015, 5:49 PM
What Emcon5 said. You can cash and carry a C&R pistol from a dealer, but a PPT has to go through an FFL.

emcon5
01-21-2015, 6:04 PM
You can cash and carry a C&R pistol from a dealer

Not without an 03 FFL and a COE, I don't think.

jfdodge
01-21-2015, 6:06 PM
So if I purchased one off gunbroker, with no c&r ffl, it would have to be shipped to an ffl locally and drosed to me.

emcon5
01-21-2015, 6:09 PM
So if I purchased one off gunbroker, with no c&r ffl, it would have to be shipped to an ffl locally and drosed to me.

Yes, just like any other handgun. The only advantage for someone without a 03 FFL is that it is exempt from the roster.

jfdodge
01-21-2015, 6:21 PM
Awesome, thanks for the info. Now I have one more gun related area to spend money on!

81turbota
01-21-2015, 7:38 PM
Not without an 03 FFL and a COE, I don't think.

Sorry, yes I forgot that very important detail. The dealers have a special dros for C&R, which lets them input the COE number and deliver the gun the same day.

jfdodge
01-21-2015, 8:15 PM
I have to have the 03ffl or the dealer? And is there a way to tell who is an 03 ffl dealer?

HibikiR
01-21-2015, 8:46 PM
03 FFL applies to the buyer, you, not the dealer.

In your case, if you want a C&R handgun you can buy one from a dealer (i.e. local gun shop) or have one transferred to a dealer. You DROS the gun almost like any other handgun, except that the dealer will note the C&R exemption concerning the roster. You wait your 10 days and then pick it up and enjoy the rest of your 1-in-30 cooldown period as with any other handgun purchase.

An 03 FFL isn't really useful for handguns without a COE. When you have a 03 FFL from the ATF and a COE from CA DOJ you can pick up C&R handguns without worry about 1-in-30, though they might start a 1-in-30 that can prevent you from picking up a modern handgun (possibly due to dealers filling out the exemptions wrong) so pick up modern handguns before C&R handguns. 03 FFL + COE also allows you to walk out with any C&R handgun or C&R long-gun instead of waiting 10 days. 03 FFL + COE will let you have C&R long-guns sent directly to your door, but upon receipt you must send out a CA registration form within 5 days. PPT and C&R rules may differ.

C&R status eligibility rules are the same for long-guns and handguns:
A) 50+ years old, based on when the individual firearm was manufactured not when the model was first introduced, a 1966 Walther PPK is ineligible while a 1964 Walther PPK is.
-or-
B) If the model is on the ATF C&R list, it's pretty specific so don't try to buy something you think is on the list until you either get confirmation or really understand how the list works. A Walther PPK manufactured in Zella-Mehlis Thur is on list while a Walther PPK made in Ulm/do is not.

jfdodge
01-21-2015, 10:02 PM
Ok, that makes more sense, thanks for the info. Is there a way to check serial numbers for a production date? The one pistol I'm looking at doesn't give a production date.

HibikiR
01-21-2015, 10:38 PM
Not sure about handguns, but some aficionados of long rifles gather data from old records and assemble serial number ranges linked to years of manufacture. It might be possible for some handguns if the fanbase is strong enough and the records available are complete enough.

But generally most handguns of interest are known to have ceased production at a particular year, for example the M1911A1 ceased production following the end of WWII so we know that all real M1911A1 date that far back at the latest.

I can't really say more than that without knowing what pistol you're looking at.

jfdodge
01-21-2015, 11:09 PM
It's a Remington rand m1911a1 from what I can see on gunbroker, I think the serial number starts with 240xxxx

emcon5
01-22-2015, 6:00 AM
An 03 FFL isn't really useful for handguns without a COE.

Unless you live close enough to a free state, or travel regularly outside CA. You can buy any C&R over the counter while outside CA, and register it when you get home.

The only catch is that the gun must be legal in CA, not an Assault Weapon, and any mags would have to be 10 rds or less or disassembled before you cross the CA frontier.

HibikiR
01-22-2015, 7:29 AM
It's a Remington rand m1911a1 from what I can see on gunbroker, I think the serial number starts with 240xxxx

Remington Rand was one of the wartime manufacturers of M1911A1s and like the others they stopped at the end of WWII. No Remington Rand M1911A1s were produced after 1946 so by the "50 year old rule" all of them became C&R after 1997.

The Remington Rand would also fall under the ATF C&R list entry: All properly marked and identified semiautomatic pistols and revolvers used, or mfd. for, any military organization prior to 1946. The "United States Property" label among other roll marks address the "properly marked" criteria.

TL;DR: Go for it.

rdfact
01-22-2015, 9:04 AM
Can you get a Polish Radom P64 if you have both a C&R and COE?
https://www.classicfirearms.com/polish-radom-p-64-pistols-g

I'm not clear what this means from the ATF:
The P64 is listed but so is the M1.
https://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/update-january-2009-june-2010.html

"Section II — Firearms classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968.




Polish, Model P64 pistols, 9 x 18mm Makarov caliber, all serial numbers
Springfield Armory, M1 Garand semiautomatic rifle, .30 caliber, S/N 2502800

"

HibikiR
01-22-2015, 9:48 AM
The P64 can be bought by anyone, but having a C&R and COE means you don't have to wait 10 days for it or worry about a 1-in-30 denial.

As for that M1 entry, that's referring to a specific one so that could mean that there was an M1 that was produced but not marked as U.S. Military property. Possible test platform, milestone production, gift, etc.

As for every other M1, there are entries in the list for them:
Military issue: U.S., Rifle, cal. .30 M1, original military issue only, produced prior to 1956
Competition: U.S. Rifle, caliber .30, M1, original issue only, produced prior to 1958
WWII Era: All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic mfd. between 1899 and 1946

Since the last real government contract M1 rolled off the line more than 50 years ago all the government contract M1 rifles are C&R due to age too.

rdfact
01-22-2015, 11:11 AM
The P64 can be bought by anyone, but having a C&R and COE means you don't have to wait 10 days for it or worry about a 1-in-30 denial.


Thanks. I should have clarified: If I have a C&R (FFL03) and a COE, can I get a P64 shipped directly to me, or does it still have to go through an FFL01?

emcon5
01-22-2015, 12:09 PM
Thanks. I should have clarified: If I have a C&R (FFL03) and a COE, can I get a P64 shipped directly to me, or does it still have to go through an FFL01?

Any handgun shipped to the Glorious Democratic Peoples Republic of California must go through a 01 FFL.

Only way around it I can think of is if you have an 03 FFL and take possession of it while outside the state.

You would still need to register it with the DOJ when you bring it home.

Sugarfoot47
01-22-2015, 8:46 PM
Unless you live close enough to a free state, or travel regularly outside CA. You can buy any C&R over the counter while outside CA, and register it when you get home.

The only catch is that the gun must be legal in CA, not an Assault Weapon, and any mags would have to be 10 rds or less or disassembled before you cross the CA frontier.

Unfortunately, bringing in disassembled mags that hold more than ten rounds is no longer a legal option and has been that way since the first of January of last year.