PDA

View Full Version : US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war


FCB66
05-26-2008, 9:44 PM
AP article on Yahoo tonight. Most of it is the same old story, M855 effectiveness in an urban war like Iraq. Maybe it's time to do that AK OLL build, Hmmmmm......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080527/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/battling_over_bullets

Synergy
05-26-2008, 9:49 PM
Maybe its time for hollowpoints. The Hague provision is antiquated. Lets make a bullet that just injures and doesnt kill. Maybe I am missing the common sense.

A lot have suggested the 6.8 SPC
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/rem117_071305/

NiteQwill
05-26-2008, 9:52 PM
Because back in the day, wars were fought in a "gentle" way. ;)

This has been an ongoing subject beat to death by troops and has fallen upon deaf ears in the higher pay grades.

Two Shots
05-26-2008, 10:03 PM
Time for the U.S to go back to Bigger is Better. 458 SOCOM for the up close and personal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTeCQULLGGI&feature=related

cbn620
05-26-2008, 10:05 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say it's time for hollow points, but the bullets could use a face lift. These gain the higher lethality out to longer ranges. That is all fine and good, but not particularly suited to today's warfare, as it would seem.

I'm not sure on too much of the specifics of the M855 except for the basics. Are they spitzer? Boat tail? I wish I knew more. But at any rate, it would seem to me a soft point would be more effective than a hollow point. I've tried hollow points and I find the accuracy to be unacceptable outside of very close ranges. Even at 50 yards I find the accuracy in hollow points to drop beneath that which I'd consider satisfactory.

MrLogan
05-26-2008, 10:24 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say it's time for hollow points, but the bullets could use a face lift. These gain the higher lethality out to longer ranges. That is all fine and good, but not particularly suited to today's warfare, as it would seem.

I'm not sure on too much of the specifics of the M855 except for the basics. Are they spitzer? Boat tail? I wish I knew more. But at any rate, it would seem to me a soft point would be more effective than a hollow point. I've tried hollow points and I find the accuracy to be unacceptable outside of very close ranges. Even at 50 yards I find the accuracy in hollow points to drop beneath that which I'd consider satisfactory.

M855 is boat tail. Some of the close quarter "problems" of M855 are solved by moving up to a heavier bullet, such as the MK262 77gr OTM.

5.56 is a good round.

X-NewYawker
05-26-2008, 10:35 PM
And 7.62 may be the right round for the Sand box.

FlyingPen
05-26-2008, 10:40 PM
Under a 100 yards, I'd rather get hit by an AK47 than a M16 or even M4 firing M193 or M855.

Why didn't they just order up more Mk262 and make that general issue instead of more M855. I understand manufacturing is an issue but Mk262 seems to be the wunderound that we need to make more of.

cbn620
05-26-2008, 11:58 PM
M855 is boat tail. Some of the close quarter "problems" of M855 are solved by moving up to a heavier bullet, such as the MK262 77gr OTM.

5.56 is a good round.

5.56 is definitely a good round. I wasn't saying we ought to go back to 7.62 or anything. Just that we should change from the M855's version of the 5.56 to something more effective in closer ranges.

Off topic but I feel like mentioning one note about the 5.56 and my preference. In terms of fun guns, stuff for plinking, I actually prefer more recoil. What's the highest recoil I can get out of a 5.56? In terms of the actual gun choice and bullet weight choices.

Teletiger7
05-27-2008, 12:15 AM
Under a 100 yards, I'd rather get hit by an AK47 than a M16 or even M4 firing M193 or M855.

Why didn't they just order up more Mk262 and make that general issue instead of more M855. I understand manufacturing is an issue but Mk262 seems to be the wunderound that we need to make more of.

I would guess that cost and logistics is the reason that M855 is still in use. Probably hundreds of thousands/millions of rounds in the inventory already. And of course, Mk262 is more expensive.

NRAhighpowershooter
05-27-2008, 10:56 AM
my local pravda (The Dailey Review) had quoted the price for one round of M855 as .33 a round!!:rolleyes: The reporter probably called some gun shop and asked how much a single round of 223 would cost.....

PIRATE14
05-27-2008, 11:26 AM
M855...does what it's supposed to do...go through a helmet at 300 meters and pierce body armor.....

Now the 193 is much better at CQB distances...

MK262 seems to do both very well.....which they make 24/7....


Everyone wants 50BMg lethality or instant death from a bullet wound....not going to happen.....

tophatjones
05-27-2008, 12:10 PM
You'll still see a lot of marketing hype over the 6.8spc and the 6.5 Grendel, but from what I know (which isn't much), the military isn't looking for a new round. It wouldn't even be reinventing the wheel, it be moving to a slightly larger wheel so we can get slightly more traction at the cost of a new military program sort of thing. Well, my .02 anyways.

huck
05-27-2008, 12:10 PM
I think they should switch to the Mk262 mod 1

http://ammo.ar15.com/#mk262


...and designate the millions of unused M855 rounds to surplus. :)

JTROKS
05-27-2008, 1:12 PM
Terrorists does not follow either convention/treaty rules. Why can't we use hollowpoint bullets? When I deployed to the desert, both times I had to go through a ROE and LOAC briefing. We were told we are risking an Art 15 or even court martial if we bring ammo that is expanding or hollowpoint in nature. We are suppose to treat the enemy with respect. I respected them, in fact I was amazed how much they can fly up in the air and still stay intact after a 500 pounder hits close to them.

PIRATE14
05-27-2008, 1:21 PM
Terrorists does not follow either convention/treaty rules. Why can't we use hollowpoint bullets? When I deployed to the desert, both times I had to go through a ROE and LOAC briefing. We were told we are risking an Art 15 or even court martial if we bring ammo that is expanding or hollowpoint in nature. We are suppose to treat the enemy with respect. I respected them, in fact I was amazed how much they can fly up in the air and still stay intact after a 500 pounder hits close to them.

Ya 500 pounders....not so much....

2000 pounders.....much more HEI...per pound....;)

trinydex
05-27-2008, 1:38 PM
Maybe its time for hollowpoints. The Hague provision is antiquated. Lets make a bullet that just injures and doesnt kill. Maybe I am missing the common sense.

A lot have suggested the 6.8 SPC
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/rem117_071305/

do hollow points go through car glass and basic car doors? or can they be made to rather? don't wanna trade one problem for another while we're on the quest for one bullet that does all.

http://ammo.ar15.com/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

here's some more interesting bits on m262

trinydex
05-27-2008, 1:55 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

i recall reading somewhere in here that "bigger is not necessarily better" for rifle calibers. permanent wound cavity made by framented 5.56 is many times better than overpenetrated 7.62.

anyone care to comment?

Cobrarlc
05-27-2008, 2:11 PM
It is time for Uncle Sugar to retrofit the remaining M14 in storage. Instead of lending them to our Nato Allies or letting Captian Crunch scrap them. Put them to good use and help our boys by allowing them to be riflemen and not spray and prayers. Instead of only 2 DMRs per unit carrying the M14, they should allow our boys to carry them and use them.:cool2:

Linh
05-27-2008, 3:10 PM
We should issue terrorist IBA so our bullet can do more damage to them.................jk but it's the gov any changes will take forever.

I'm for Soldiers being issued Dragonskin with 6.8 AR.

But hey the dragonskin sucks that why CIA,FBI,PSD and Generals wear it.

5.56 is awesome that's why Special Forces have been tryin to get a different round since somalia.

trinydex
05-27-2008, 3:14 PM
i have a question. a genuine one, because i actually don't know.

but would a higher velocity larger round do better on a "skinny." wouldn't that over penetrate even more?

or did they develop the mozambique drill for a reason?

Linh
05-27-2008, 3:18 PM
i have a question. a genuine one, because i actually don't know.

but would a higher velocity larger round do better on a "skinny." wouldn't that over penetrate even more?

or did they develop the mozambique drill for a reason?

Can't answer your question but I think you watched too much Black Hawk down skinnies are somalians. This current war we are fighting Haji (can't remember the spelling). But Soldiers aren't allowed to use the term Haji unless it's changed. I wonder what they called the Afgans?

FlyingPen
05-27-2008, 3:22 PM
i have a question. a genuine one, because i actually don't know.

but would a higher velocity larger round do better on a "skinny." wouldn't that over penetrate even more?

or did they develop the mozambique drill for a reason?

Mozambique drill is for pistols AFAIK

A high velocity M193 and probably M855 will fragment if it hits above 2700fps which the M4 can do with the M193 reliably IIRC around 100-150 yards. A fragmented 5.56mm is a lot more deadly than getting with a 7.62.

The only problem is if you're using armor piercing rounds, then you're just making 22LR holes in people.

huck
05-27-2008, 3:26 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

i recall reading somewhere in here that "bigger is not necessarily better" for rifle calibers. permanent wound cavity made by framented 5.56 is many times better than overpenetrated 7.62.

anyone care to comment?

One of the people mentioned in the OP's article said that velocity was the real problem:

Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.

"The faster a bullet hits the tissue, the more it's going to fragment," says Fackler. "Bullets that go faster cause more damage. It's that simple."


This bit from Ammo Oracle spells it out:

http://ammo.ar15.com/#velocity

You need 3000 FPS for it to really fragment.

Linh
05-27-2008, 4:16 PM
Mozambique drill is for pistols AFAIK

A high velocity M193 and probably M855 will fragment if it hits above 2700fps which the M4 can do with the M193 reliably IIRC around 100-150 yards. A fragmented 5.56mm is a lot more deadly than getting with a 7.62.

The only problem is if you're using armor piercing rounds, then you're just making 22LR holes in people.

They also teach it for AR-15 as well. It's the drill that goes two to the chest and one to the head right? If so then they do teach it for AR-15. A Special force Operator mentioned that he had to shoot a skinny 4 times to put him down. And now he is teaching that drill.

trinydex
05-27-2008, 5:32 PM
Can't answer your question but I think you watched too much Black Hawk down skinnies are somalians. This current war we are fighting Haji (can't remember the spelling). But Soldiers aren't allowed to use the term Haji unless it's changed. I wonder what they called the Afgans?

you mentioned a problem since somalia. i asked if the solution/s proposed in this thread would have remedied that situation.

run8
05-27-2008, 5:46 PM
What was the issue with the VC and NVA during Vietnam? Did it take as many hits as on the Somalians to take them down? Wasn't there an issue of drug use on the VC/NVA side, as with the Somalians?



They also teach it for AR-15 as well. It's the drill that goes two to the chest and one to the head right? If so then they do teach it for AR-15. A Special force Operator mentioned that he had to shoot a skinny 4 times to put him down. And now he is teaching that drill.

cbn620
05-27-2008, 5:47 PM
"Bigger is better" is the old pumpkin roller mentality. It's pretty well accepted that higher velocity is better, and smaller rounds produce higher numbers. I recall my father telling me about some of the briefing they did when they traded their 14's for 16's. This was back in Vietnam. They were showing wound photos of the .223 from M16 rifles. Not only do they fragment, they yaw. It's very impressive how pieces would almost tend to "bounce".

From what I have been told and from what I have studied, it's clear to me a .223 round such as the 5.56 NATO is nothing to play around with. But I sometimes doubt its effectiveness in CQB scenarios. I really like the 6.8 SPC, seems to be a perfect balance.

At any rate, I think the M855 should be replaced with the next step up. As has been said already though, it's an issue of logistics and the government is slow as all hell.

cbn620
05-27-2008, 5:52 PM
What was the issue with the VC and NVA during Vietnam? Did it take as many hits as on the Somalians to take them down? Wasn't there an issue of drug use on the VC/NVA side, as with the Somalians?

I haven't ever heard the issue of the VC/NVA using drugs. At the very least I'm fairly sure the NVA was above such, being the more organized group--an actual standing army.

I also have never heard much about the effectiveness of the 5.56 in Vietnam. Most of the veteran I have spoken with talk more about the reliability of the original pattern M16's in jungle territory (we've heard this one before, jams and the like), and the fact that the 7.62's the VC used could cut brush better.

Army
05-27-2008, 8:04 PM
Don't fall for the hype. The M4/M16 is doing just fine in the ITO and ATO, so is the ammo. The M14 is the last weapon for CQB, compared to the myriad of carbine and shorter weapons available. A rifle longer than a Garand just don't make it in a cramped hajji house....not to mention they are a pain in the stuffed to the gills confines of an M1151.

Hajji dies just fine with our current gear. Re-read that "report", and see that over 4/5ths of troops do NOT have a problem with the rifles and ammo. BS lies and hype, nothing more.

dw33b
05-27-2008, 8:24 PM
I wonder what the wound channel would look like if a .308 were throated up to a 10mm.

bigdave1121
05-27-2008, 8:55 PM
Don't fall for the hype. The M4/M16 is doing just fine in the ITO and ATO, so is the ammo. The M14 is the last weapon for CQB, compared to the myriad of carbine and shorter weapons available. A rifle longer than a Garand just don't make it in a cramped hajji house....not to mention they are a pain in the stuffed to the gills confines of an M1151.

Hajji dies just fine with our current gear. Re-read that "report", and see that over 4/5ths of troops do NOT have a problem with the rifles and ammo. BS lies and hype, nothing more.

Sounds good to me :cool2:

run8
05-27-2008, 8:57 PM
I vaguely recall reading, seeing, hearing of the issue of enemy drug use in Vietnam, but again it could be made up BS or someone not having their ducks in a row, I have no factual evidence which is why ask.

Besides can't hurt to ask. :D



I haven't ever heard the issue of the VC/NVA using drugs. At the very least I'm fairly sure the NVA was above such, being the more organized group--an actual standing army.

I also have never heard much about the effectiveness of the 5.56 in Vietnam. Most of the veteran I have spoken with talk more about the reliability of the original pattern M16's in jungle territory (we've heard this one before, jams and the like), and the fact that the 7.62's the VC used could cut brush better.

N_S
05-28-2008, 8:38 PM
Hollowpoints are banned by the geneva convention as inhumane.

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-28-2008, 8:41 PM
http://www.ctuclan.us/CoD%20Page/tommygun_63.jpg

Seems like a good fix.

Army
05-28-2008, 8:56 PM
Hollowpoints are banned by the geneva convention as inhumane.

Negative. The Geneva's only related to POW care and treatment, they had nothing to do with killing in warfare.

The Hague concerned ammunition, and only outlawed that ammo designed to cause unnecessary injuries.

Hollowpoint Sierra Matchkings are in heavy use by Snipers, Designated Marksmen, and SOG teams. Match hollowpoints are not designed to expand, resulting in wound damage no worse than regular ball ammo.