OLL build seized by BLM! Please help!

[NwG]

Sorry guys.. Have to remove everything on lawyers advice.. I'll do my best to update when I can!

Thanks for the help!!!!

Nate D

[bwiese]

PM me & Gene with your lawyer's contact info and the ranger info (station, name, etc.) We can get the lawyer up to speed, we've done this before.

[ohsmily]

This BLM officer is a rude idiot. Hopefully, after this, he will be more educated on the subject.

[SC_00_05]

Reading these things is really infuriating. Why these people don't know the laws while supposedly enforcing them is beyond me. Why wouldn't they give any type of receipt for your property?

Anyway, I have no real advice except to maybe get with a lawyer who knows this inside and out, sorry to hear about this happening.

[hoffmang]

PM us and we can help. It would also help if you gave us both officer's names via PM so we can contact them and give them some more of the background info. This should only end up being an annoyance.

-Gene

[Solidmch]

Those guys at BLM are a strange sort. Sounds like a spanking will be coming their way.

[bwiese]

The OP should refrain from further postings and perhaps edit some comments.

The possible shooting near a road is a warning-level issue but likely turns out to be a nonissue.

AWs are allowed on pure BLM land per the 2003 Region 5 memo.

Non-AWs just ain't AWs.

How come Fed employees on Fed land are enforcing microdetails of CA state law - that they don't even know?

[recshooter]

I am sending positive vibes your way man--could have been any one of us, but it sounds like you handled the situation as best you could.

Not being arrested by these fools was a good sign.


Good luck, I will be watching this. These things piss me off to no end.



I'm sure Gene and others will tell us if there is anything that we can do to help you--and I will do it.

[-hanko]

Good thing you didn't have your dog with you;)

-hanko

[rue]

That sucks man. I hope you get them back. I see these stories once in awhile so I store my rifle without it's upper and try not to take it anywhere where I might encounter LE that's not up to speed on the OLL stuff. (range only)

[Casual Observer]

Guys like that BLM ranger can only be "educated" one way.

It's a shame he had to act like an ***.

[Solidmch]

The OP should refrain from further postings and perhaps edit some comments.

The possible shooting near a road is a warning-level issue but likely turns out to be a nonissue.

AWs are allowed on pure BLM land per the 2003 Region 5 memo.

Non-AWs just ain't AWs.

How come Fed employees on Fed land are enforcing microdetails of CA state law - that they don't even know?

Like I said before most BLM guys are a strange sort. Thy only make about $43,00 to $50,000 tops. They usually have tried to get into a municipal pd, but cannot pass the psych. I am not exagerating in the least! One sighn that this guy was not sure about what he was doing is the fact that no arrest was made. Though a site for a court date is an arrest.

[Jicko]

At this time he asked me how to remove the Aimpoint from my friends weapon and removed the ACOG from mine and handed them to us. He also grabbed a few of my legal 30 round AR mag and said he was taking them too. I was in no mood to fight with this guy as anything we said seemed to just make him angry.

...

We were not arrested nor were we given a case number or property receipt. We packed up our stuff and went home. We were not even in the desert 24 hours!

No case number, no property recipt? Did you, at least, get a business card from him? What if you go to the DA/police station, and there is no record of this event!? Did you just get your property stolen right in front of you?

But then, at least, you got your ACOG back.

Did you have some "documents" printed out? I always have my DOJ stag letter, the flowchart, the AW ID guide, printout of the PC... .etc...

I would have totally asked him by what PC is he seizing those weapons based on. (I'd even provide him with 12276)

[NwG]

Removed as advised by lawyer... Sorry!

[RRangel]

This reminds me of the term "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but that only applies when you are not working in law enforcement. I would be tempted to file a stolen gun report.

Hindsight is 20/20, but you should have gotten more pertinent contact information. Stop posting info, and contact those that want PM's in this thread ASAP.

[Steyr_223]

Sending positive vibes your way man...You will win, you have some good advice there from the Calguns gurus..

[69Mach1]

Kern county should be friendly to your cause, getting your stuff back. When all is OK, file a lawsuit for the unlawful consification of the preban mags. Good luck.

[Anthonysmanifesto]

Calguns Rapid Action Force: on call 24/7

[USN CHIEF]

At least you got your scopes back. Good luck in getting your property back. It sucks that you are more than likely will spend more money on legal fees than what the rifles are worth.

[chris]

typical uneducated LE. seems to happen more and more often. good luck to you.

[bear308]

... I would be tempted to file a stolen gun report.
...


hell that might not even be that far off, isn't LE required to give you a reciept upon confiscation of property. Without that could it be considered theft? Would be really fun to watch at least.

[hoffmang]

Law enforcement is required to give you a receipt for your property. If you did not receive a receipt you need to be making a record post haste. I don't want to get in front of your lawyer and his/her advice, but seizing property without a receipt to you is potentially theft under California law. You certainly need to contact the seizing officer's department to report that your property was seized without receipt as there is now no check and balance as to what happens to the rifles.

-Gene

[chris]

it seems the excuse to "ignorance of the law" is no excuse expcept if you wear the badge. how disgusting how uneducated they are of the laws that have to uphold. but when it comes down to doing their job such as seizure that a recipt is suddenly forgotten and property taken. it looks like a blatent seizure of property and the offending officer must be punished to the FULL extent of the LAW. ignorance is no excuse for them AT ALL!!!!

[M. Sage]

The OP should refrain from further postings and perhaps edit some comments.


Did some cleanup for him.

[Darklyte27]

wow thats nuts. So if everything is legal, can it be considered theft?
assuming that no laws were broken.

[jamesob]

they should have given you a recept for the firearm. if not you might have gotten it stolen. you maybe s.o.l

[MILLITIAof1]

I'm sorry to hear the bad news...
the BLM are complete idiots

[69Mach1]

I'm sorry to hear the bad news...
the BLM are complete idiots

........and hopefully, liable.

[USN CHIEF]

There is always 3 sides to the story...

[Gator Monroe]

There will be more of these run-ins with LEO's (And even a couple of Bright spot type events in the near future):mad:

[savageevo]

You should at least took a picture of his face and send it to someone. That would be real good proof on who took oll. Keep us updated and we are behind you 1000% persent.

On a side note, I always carry a mini sd video camera every where I go. its a good insurance if he said she said came about. You can't ever trust them on there word anymore.

[Yankee Clipper]

There will be more of these run-ins with LEO's (And even a couple of Bright spot type events in the near future):mad:

How do you know that? Which LEO's and why?

[Sam .223]

when everything pans out and they see its a legal rifle there's no recourse for time and money lost. if ignorence isn't an excuse for us it shouldn't be for the ENFORCERS of the law. it'd be great to be able to hold them legally accountable for their actions when its a wrong doing like this.

[DedEye]

How do you know that? Which LEO's and why?

It's paranoid :fud:.

Did some cleanup for him.

Story doesn't make much sense with the edits; can more details be re-added at a later date :confused:?

[Hopi]

How do you know that? Which LEO's and why?

Gator works for the super secret DOJ Bureau of FUD. Ask him nicely and he'll show you his badge....:p

[workinwifdakids]

A police officer cannot conduct illegal activities simply because he has a badge and a gun. If he didn't give you a receipt, you may act under the assumption that he in fact stole your property under color of authority. Your civil rights were violated under the 2nd Amendment and 5th Amendment, and you are the victim of a crime. You know that because he said he knew the law.

I would file a stolen property report with the county Sheriff, I'd call the ATF's stolen weapons hotline, then I'd call the FBI's civil rights division, and after that I'd call my Congressman and say a federal agent stole your property without cause. Then I'd file a report with BLM's internal affairs division. After that I'd call BLM headquarters every 5 minutes until they give you your property back.

I'd also file a case in small claims court for the amount of the rifle, naming that specific officer, for the total value of the rifle. Those things would all keep me busy enough that I *PROBABLY* wouldn't do something I'd regret.

I'd then take a week off of work. I'd follow that officer around for the entire week with a rolling video camera about five feet from him.

WTF, is this communist CHINA or what?

[nothing4u]

Another case of I don't care enough to know the details of laws I'm suppose to be enforcing. So I'll confiscate and turn over evidence to the DA and let him sort it out. Oh by the way if I'm wrong sucks to be you, cause your gonna pay all the legal fees, and I'm not held accountable.

Seems to me that BLM officer knew something about OLL or something maybe not all the details. If he/she really believe they were illegal don't you think he would arrested them and threw them into jail instead of just confiscating them and let them go?

[chris]

Another case of I don't care enough to know the details of laws I'm suppose to be enforcing. So I'll confiscate and turn over evidence to the DA and let him sort it out. Oh by the way if I'm wrong sucks to be you, cause your gonna pay all the legal fees, and I'm not held accountable.

Seems to me that BLM officer knew something about OLL or something maybe not all the details. If he/she really believe they were illegal don't you think he would arrested them and threw them into jail instead of just confiscating them and let them go?

hey your post sounds like the legislature after it passed SB23. we don't care about what the law says let the DOJ and the DA's handle it.

and yes this is abuse under the color of law. and it is one of the most disgusting acts by LE i have seen. it is pure ignorance as the OP post is written. i can not for any reason see that this LE should not be prosecuted for theft and violation of rights. but this is Kalifornia and we have basiclly have no rights. as for the LE's attitude and actions are deplorable.

i hope for the best and that the lawyers that may handle this case throw the Frickin book at this LE for his actions.

good luck to you sir.

[FEDUPWBS]

I like this guy! This is the kind of aggressive action we should take EVERY TIME a Calgunner is harassed until we beat these unconstitutional laws.


A police officer cannot conduct illegal activities simply because he has a badge and a gun. If he didn't give you a receipt, you may act under the assumption that he in fact stole your property under color of authority. Your civil rights were violated under the 2nd Amendment and 5th Amendment, and you are the victim of a crime. You know that because he said he knew the law.

I would file a stolen property report with the county Sheriff, I'd call the ATF's stolen weapons hotline, then I'd call the FBI's civil rights division, and after that I'd call my Congressman and say a federal agent stole your property without cause. Then I'd file a report with BLM's internal affairs division. After that I'd call BLM headquarters every 5 minutes until they give you your property back.

I'd also file a case in small claims court for the amount of the rifle, naming that specific officer, for the total value of the rifle. Those things would all keep me busy enough that I *PROBABLY* wouldn't do something I'd regret.

I'd then take a week off of work. I'd follow that officer around for the entire week with a rolling video camera about five feet from him.

WTF, is this communist CHINA or what?

[GuyW]

....I would be tempted to file a stolen gun report....

+1!

[saigon1965]

Tag

[M. Sage]

Story doesn't make much sense with the edits; can more details be re-added at a later date :confused:?

I don't know. He posted really specific info, I didn't feel comfortable leaving that out there.

Basically, OP was out shooting on BLM land, was a bit too close to a road, one BLM officer came along, called another. The second one seized two OLLs as unregistered assault weapons after trying to pound out a mag locked in with a P50...

[paladin4415]

Any and all LEO's are REQUIRED to give you a receipt for any property taken, especially a firearm. If you were not given a receipt, you need to file a stolen firearm report asap.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

tag

[CSACANNONEER]

Any and all LEO's are REQUIRED to give you a receipt for any property taken, especially a firearm. If you were not given a receipt, you need to file a stolen firearm report asap.

If you live in certain areas, you are requried by law to report stolen guns within 24 hours. If you live in a city with this ridiculous law, don't become a criminal just because you're a victim. Don't post any more responses and follow your attorny's advise but, if you need to take action asap, don't hesitate to call your lawyer tonight!

[Solidmch]

Are the "right people" on this???

[BroncoBob]

My buddy and I were up at Panoche Hills today and ran into a guy who said the same thing happened to another guy a week or so ago. A ranger showed up and took the guys OLL. Looks like something is brewing.

[daskraut]

:lurk5:

[lbdrummer3]

I have had good experiences with BLM officers in the Barstow area, I'll be following this closely. Something became quite obvious in this discussion. If a LEO thinks he is right and you are wrong, no paperwork or assault weapons flow chart is going to help you at the scene. This is pretty scary.... :mad:

[Piper]

I'm thinking a charge of 211 PC is in order against that BLM ranger. No report, no arrest, no receipt and probably no radio record notifying his dispatcher where he is sounds pretty suspicious to me.

Just info only but as I read the OP, it appears he took your property with force (his authority) and fear ( your concern about going to jail if you refused to give up your property).

When you find him and your property, hammer him and make an example of him to any other government agent that considers doing this.

[NwG]

Once again thank you guys..

My silence is not a sign I am not listening.

Thank you for the support.


I will know more tomorrow when the .Gov offices are open and some contact can be made.

[nobody_special]

Just info only but as I read the OP, it appears he took your property with force (his authority) and fear ( your concern about going to jail if you refused to give up your property).

If so, it sounds like possible grounds for a federal 1983 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html) lawsuit to me... which is also subject to criminal prosecution (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000242----000-.html).

[l_Z_l]

tag

hopefully he sues the officer, maybe then the other LEOs will become educated so they can fear a lawsuit. At least they'll think twice about just doing whatever they want because they've got a badge.

[oaklander]

You did the right thing by contacting an attorney ASAP. Gene and Bill should be able to bring your attorney up to speed on the OLL issues with no problem.

Thank goodness for Calguns!!!

[ke6guj]

hopefully there is a radio record of the BLM officer being dispatched to the scene. IIRC, from the OP, another officer was first on scene and called for the BLM officer. So, hopefully that call was documented somewhere to prove at least that the BLM guy was there, and won't say "what gun, I never seen you before"

[RedDawn]

Tag,

Good luck to you.

[jeffsenpai]

I would be worried that this BLM "agent" was simply an impersonator in costume, using the false authority to run off with your weapon!

Did he have an official looking vehicle? I would hate for this scenario to have happened.

[DedEye]

I would be worried that this BLM "agent" was simply an impersonator in costume, using the false authority to run off with your weapon!

Did he have an official looking vehicle? I would hate for this scenario to have happened.

That's what I've been wondering this whole time; are you 100% sure you didn't simply get jacked?

[windsheer]

I'm not very knowledgeable of the laws . Is there any reaction type action that all calgunners can do to size up what the heck is happening . Like calling every blm office or every single law enforcement agency to ask over an over again to tell us what the laws are and how they are going to enforce them & how they are gonna react to oll with bullet buttons and with monster man type grips .

I want to do something I 'm just not sure what to I can do & what would be effective .

What about everysigle one of us call the BLM office or offices and say that I am; going camping & what are the regulation regarding what make a road or a trail ect ect what about olls & so on . What it takes for a blm officer leo to confiscate your weapon like what is their proper course of action. See if the tell us something thath states NwG was treated wrong . I would be willing to call them all week long asking polite questions . Lets join up & make them tell us what is right What is ok & then what is wrong .

What do any of you think we could do by just being a pest & wanting answers in genral . Any ideas.

I certainly don't want to be made an examle of and to get my oll build taken /stolen from the law. This has been a question of mine and I'm sure others as well from the day I got my first Stag 15 lower.

[RedDawn]

I would be worried that this BLM "agent" was simply an impersonator in costume, using the false authority to run off with your weapon!

Did he have an official looking vehicle? I would hate for this scenario to have happened.

The OP did state the first BLM officer did call in a second BLM officer to assist in the matter.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

May be a little early, but putting the fear of the citizenry in to this BLM agent through a lawsuit sounds like something I would like to get behind.

[socalgunrunner]

How do you know that? Which LEO's and why?

He's so smart that he chooses to list all of the firearms that he owns on his signature. All the LEO's have to do is look at his posts to see if he has anything of interest to them.

There will be more of these run-ins with LEO's (And even a couple of Bright spot type events in the near future):mad:

1891 Argentine Mauser(Carbine) , 1927 SEAM 6.35mm Vest pocket Auto, 1939 Daisy model 25 (Pump Action),1945 Colt 1911A1,1954 Ruger MK 1 standard, 1983 M59/66A1 ,1993 Davis .380 auto (Chrome),1994Ruger 10/22 International Carbine,Maverick 88 Riot 12, 2007 WASR 22

[gir007]

scary man! now it makes me wonder. i was shooting on blm land yesterday... only saw border patrol though. :mad: seriously sue the little basthats for what its worth if they did it illegally.

[artherd]

If you have not done so, please contact Gene, bwiese or myself. We're not lawyers, but we will Hook You Up with The Right People(TM)

[SteveH]

Any and all LEO's are REQUIRED to give you a receipt for any property taken, especially a firearm. If you were not given a receipt, you need to file a stolen firearm report asap.


Can you cite a penal code section for that? I've spent a lot of time in court rooms and never seen that one become an issue. Do you really think everytime the cops take dope off a crook they write a property receipt for it? I've seen recipts that are used for stuff collected for safekeeping but never for stuff collected as evidence.

[Crazed_SS]

Can you cite a penal code section for that? I've spent a lot of time in court rooms and never seen that one become an issue. Do you really think everytime the cops take dope off a crook they write a property receipt for it? I've seen recipts that are used for stuff collected for safekeeping but never for stuff collected as evidence.

I was just wondering the same thing. If a LEO siezes what he believes to be an illegal item/contraband, does he have to get a receipt? Im guessing he has to at least book it into evidence, but in that case shouldnt the OP had been arrested and charged?

[fairfaxjim]

I was just wondering the same thing. If a LEO siezes what he believes to be an illegal item/contraband, does he have to get a receipt? Im guessing he has to at least book it into evidence, but in that case shouldnt the OP had been arrested and charged?

Here it is:

12028.7. (a) When a firearm is taken into custody by a law enforcement officer, the officer shall issue the person who possessed the firearm a receipt describing the firearm, and listing any serial number or other identification on the firearm.
(b) The receipt shall indicate where the firearm may be recovered, any applicable time limit for recovery, and the date after which the owner or possessor may recover the firearm, pursuant to Section 12021.3.
(c) Nothing in this section is intended to displace any existing law regarding the seizure or return of firearms.

What I don't know is whether or not this applies to federal officers on federal land. I know they like to say they ENFORCE state laws, but do the FOLLOW state laws in their own operations??

[USN CHIEF]

I wish for the OP and his buddy to be able to recover their OLL's. It's a pretty bad when the Po Po takes away someones' guns because of the LEO's ingorance of the law and especially when the OP was shooting his guns in a safe manner.

I am down with assisting in whatever shape or form I can. If donations are needed for a legal fund or to fight this injustice, I will be more than happy to contribute to it as soon as the "Right" people post here stating that injustice was done to the OP..

[DesertGunner]

Your civil rights were violated under the 2nd Amendment and 5th Amendment, and you are the victim of a crime.

I'm not saying there were no 2nd or 5th violations, but you kind of left out the more important, and more applicable one: 4th.

[xrMike]

Tag

tag

:lurk5:

tag

Tag,

You guys should select "Subscribe to this thread" under "Thread Tools" instead of this 'tagging' stuff.

That's why it's there.

[tango-52]

You guys should select "Subscribe to this thread" under "Thread Tools" instead of this 'tagging' stuff.

That's why it's there.

But using the tools doesn't add to their post count. :D

[Gator Monroe]

How do you know that? Which LEO's and why?

Can you say PRK ? (Why do you think we call it that ??):sleeping:

[xrMike]

But using the tools doesn't add to their post count. :DMy bad. :D

[Piper]

Can you cite a penal code section for that? I've spent a lot of time in court rooms and never seen that one become an issue. Do you really think everytime the cops take dope off a crook they write a property receipt for it? I've seen recipts that are used for stuff collected for safekeeping but never for stuff collected as evidence.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Taking illegal drugs from someone is a whole lot different than taking somones legally possessed property. Also, usually, when drugs are taken, the person formerly possessing those drugs is usually taken in the form of being arrested or at least cited for possession depending on the class of illegal drug. The bottom line is the fact that it is documented. The way I read the OP, no record was made of the illegal seizure of legal property. No arrest was made, no citation issued and no receipt given for the property. Not exactly on the up and up if you ask me.

[Gator Monroe]

He's so smart that he chooses to list all of the firearms that he owns on his signature. All the LEO's have to do is look at his posts to see if he has anything of interest to them.

If none of my Firearms interest you ,what makes you think they will give LEO's a hard on ??? I have nothing to hide (Yet) ... Do You ????:eek:

[RedDawn]

You guys should select "Subscribe to this thread" under "Thread Tools" instead of this 'tagging' stuff.

That's why it's there.

"Subscribe to thread" in thread tools...learned something new. Thanks :D

[IGOTDIRT4U]

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Taking illegal drugs from someone is a whole lot different than taking somones legally possessed property. Also, usually, when drugs are taken, the person formerly possessing those drugs is usually taken in the form of being arrested or at least cited for possession depending on the class of illegal drug. The bottom line is the fact that it is documented. The way I read the OP, no record was made of the illegal seizure of legal property. No arrest was made, no citation issued and no receipt given for the property. Not exactly on the up and up if you ask me.

As far as I am concerned, the BLM Ranger now is in possession of an illegal weapon that is not legally his. His misdemeanor just went to a felony.

[USN CHIEF]

As far as I am concerned, the BLM Ranger now is in possession of an illegal weapon that is not legally his. His misdemeanor just went to a felony.

Or now it can turn into the OP's word against the LEO's word as to how the LEO found the rifles...:eek: Po Po can say he found them with detachable 30 round mags and crap like that.. Therefore justifying the confiscation of such Oll's:eek:

[blackberg]

As far as I am concerned, the BLM Ranger now is in possession of an illegal weapon that is not legally his. His misdemeanor just went to a felony.

How is it an illegal weapon?

he is illegally possessing the OPs legal weapon

-bb

[E Pluribus Unum]

The officer was ignorant.

If the shooter was too close to the road when he was shooting he could have cited the OP for that misdemeanor, released him on OR and then confiscated his rifle for evidense.

Maybe the officer liked the rifle so much that he took it with him. If he was interested in the bust, he would have arrested the OP.

Sounds very fishy. I'd like to know what happens on this.

[IGOTDIRT4U]

Calm down guys, it was a tongue in cheek comment. The alleged reason for the confiscation was the gun is/was illegal (we know it was not). If there is no record of the confiscation, he now possess what he called an illegal gun, yet he is not the rightful owner, as well.

Regardless, the OP does have a witness, the other Ranger that showed up first. Plus, there were air calls, so there should be a record of some sort. Time will tell what happens, but on face value, someone acted strangely.

[MILLITIAof1]

I shoot out where he was all the time.
I am now having a hard time thinking about what I would do if I were confronted by authorities and they attempt to illegaly seize my legal weapon, especially without legal documents. It is very very sad that things have reached this point.

At what point do we say enough is enough and stand up for our constitutional rights?

[Gator Monroe]

I shoot out where he was all the time.
I am now having a hard time thinking about what I would do if I were confronted by authorities and they attempt to illegaly seize my legal weapon, especially without legal documents. It is very very sad that things have reached this point.

At what point do we say enough is enough and stand up for our constitutional rights?

And posters here give me a hard time for saying that More Bright Spot type events and LEO weapon seizures loom on the horizon !:sleeping:

[xrMike]

They say hindsight is always 20-20, but I probably would've called 911 after the confiscation and reported it as theft of personal property by an armed person (the BLM ranger). At least then there would be a recording of the time, and a description of what happened, and what was taken.

[SteveH]

The officer was ignorant.

If the shooter was too close to the road when he was shooting he could have cited the OP for that misdemeanor, released him on OR and then confiscated his rifle for evidense.

Maybe the officer liked the rifle so much that he took it with him. If he was interested in the bust, he would have arrested the OP.

Sounds very fishy. I'd like to know what happens on this.


You are overlooking the other option. The BLM agent might not of felt like booking him into jail on a holiday weekend so he is going the complaint route. The OP will know that is the case if he gets an arraignment letter in the mail in a couple months.

[10TH AMENDMENT]

And posters here give me a hard time for saying that More Bright Spot type events and LEO weapon seizures loom on the horizon !:sleeping:

Never got a hard time from me on that issue, Gator.

I am supremely confident that this kind of confiscation is going to persist until the DOJ performs its mandate under the California Constitution to accurately clarify what the current state of the law is regarding these firearms. Until then, law enforcement up and down this state will really have no accurate guidelines to rely on when encountering owners and sellers of these type of firearms. Additionally, owners of these firearms will not have much ability to prevent such conduct, nor will they have much recourse from the excessive fines, excessive legal costs, and destruction of their firearms when such confiscations do occur.

It really is not surprising that this is happening.

The big question is, will Jerry Brown do the right thing and correct the gross malfeasance and dereliction of duty that has been the hallmark of the DOJ for the past couple of years. The other big question is, will anyone with the required power and expertise eventually step up to the plate and motion the appropriate judicial authorities to compel Mr. Brown to do so.

All of this remains to be seen. In the meantime, there is a distinct risk to all owners of these off list, compliant firearms that a Kafkaesque situation hangs over their heads like a Sword Of Damocles.

[sloguy]

im withholding judgement till the whole story comes out, but i can say for myself that a leo better be in uniform, his car or truck marked clearly or ill call 911 and report that im being robbed by an armed person. plainclothes cops need to be acompanied by a uniformed officer with a marked car. otherwise who knows who they are. how is a reasonable person expected to be able to tell hes a cop? its for their own safety and the safety of the public.

[Bruce3]

what does BLM stand for?

[Gator Monroe]

Not a Mall Ninja, BUT POSSIBLY A gOVERNMENT LAND JBT !

[ke6guj]

what does BLM stand for?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management

[bear308]

what does BLM stand for?

Bureau of Lies and Mismanagement
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
aka
Bureau of Land Management

[StukaJr]

im withholding judgement till the whole story comes out, but i can say for myself that a leo better be in uniform, his car or truck marked clearly or ill call 911 and report that im being robbed by an armed person. plainclothes cops need to be acompanied by a uniformed officer with a marked car. otherwise who knows who they are. how is a reasonable person expected to be able to tell hes a cop? its for their own safety and the safety of the public.

BLM is usually patrolled by Rangers so they would be in uniform, in clearly marked cars and with badges, name tags and identification so I'm not sure where "plainclothes" comes into play... Did I miss something?

Also, every LEO I've known traveled with his ticket book and it's reasonable to ask for receipt for any seized property - otherwise, how do you file to get it back? Seized property without a receipt is usually a good way to forfeit property...

[MILLITIAof1]

The BLM have always been clearly marked everytime I have ever seen them in that area. They are either on yamaha dirtbikes or ford expeditions that have very obvious markings.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

You guys should select "Subscribe to this thread" under "Thread Tools" instead of this 'tagging' stuff.

That's why it's there.

That doesn't mark the thread when I scan the "New Posts" which is the only way I surf the current threads on CGN.

[workinwifdakids]

...the OP does have a witness, the other Ranger that showed up first.

:smilielol5: :smilielol5: :smilielol5: :smilielol5: :smilielol5:

Oh, my God, my sides hurt!

A guy with a badge and a gun watches another guy with a badge and a gun steal your property. You think either one will suddenly be racked with guilt over perjury?

:rofl2:

[tango-52]

That doesn't mark the thread when I scan the "New Posts" which is the only way I surf the current threads on CGN.
If there is nothing new, it won't show up when you scan "New Posts" anyway. If there is something new, set it so that it will e-mail you when there is a new post.

[sned45]

Bureau of Lies and Mismanagement
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
aka
Bureau of Land Management

or Bunch of Lazy Men.

[MILLITIAof1]

Me and a group of shooters were out in the Mojave area 3 years ago about 3 miles from pavement when we were approached by an all white Ford Explorer driving up and a slower steady pace. I noticed the US Govt plates on the vehicle. The guy (solo) gets out and is wearing a vest with a badge. He slowly walks up, asks how we are doing, and casually looks around at what we have out. He asks us to be careful to use a safe backstop (we were) since there may be a hunter out there. He reminds us to pick up after ourselves and take all our trash with us, turns around, and leaves. I think he just wanted to sum us up to make sure we weren't out of control. He did not examine or touch any weapons - just looked to see if we were being safe.

There is a guy that drives around there in a all white Ford Ranger.
I strongly beleive you should imediately surrunder all weapons to him without question:D












And when I'm done shooting all your ammo I will give them back:43:

[odysseus]

Though the OP is talking about BLM land, this is exactly my same frustration I have; and the question is what can be done to make the DOJ do their job - whether they like the info or not is not their function?

They simply are resisting doing their jobs and informing LE as to the status, which is very confusing for many LE due to AW laws. Damn frustrating.



I am supremely confident that this kind of confiscation is going to persist until the DOJ performs its mandate under the California Constitution to accurately clarify what the current state of the law is regarding these firearms. Until then, law enforcement up and down this state will really have no accurate guidelines to rely on when encountering owners and sellers of these type of firearms. Additionally, owners of these firearms will not have much ability to prevent such conduct, nor will they have much recourse from the excessive fines, excessive legal costs, and destruction of their firearms when such confiscations do occur.

It really is not surprising that this is happening.

The big question is, will Jerry Brown do the right thing and correct the gross malfeasance and dereliction of duty that has been the hallmark of the DOJ for the past couple of years. The other big question is, will anyone with the required power and expertise eventually step up to the plate and motion the appropriate judicial authorities to compel Mr. Brown to do so.

All of this remains to be seen. In the meantime, there is a distinct risk to all owners of these off list, compliant firearms that a Kafkaesque situation hangs over their heads like a Sword Of Damocles.

[hawk1]

I am supremely confident that this kind of confiscation is going to persist until the DOJ performs its mandate under the California Constitution to accurately clarify what the current state of the law is regarding these firearms. Until then, law enforcement up and down this state will really have no accurate guidelines to rely on when encountering owners and sellers of these type of firearms. Additionally, owners of these firearms will not have much ability to prevent such conduct, nor will they have much recourse from the excessive fines, excessive legal costs, and destruction of their firearms when such confiscations do occur.

It really is not surprising that this is happening.

The big question is, will Jerry Brown do the right thing and correct the gross malfeasance and dereliction of duty that has been the hallmark of the DOJ for the past couple of years. The other big question is, will anyone with the required power and expertise eventually step up to the plate and motion the appropriate judicial authorities to compel Mr. Brown to do so.




If they need to be forced into it then why hasn't that been done through a law firm? Many people here have contributed with money to helping those that have been caught up in this. Shouldn't we hire Trutanich-Michel to do this very thing? If a law frim is not needed, then maybe we need someone "gun friendly" in the government to start raising hell? Where's the NRA on this?
Am I missing something? Can the cost be that prohibitive? Seems like a very straight forward attack would be better than what we have now.

[MudCamper]

To counter the BLM bashing that's starting, I just want to point out that usually, and as a matter of policy, the BLM is the most pro-gun government land managing agency there is. Clearly the OP encountered a bad apple.

http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/prog/recreation/hunting.print.html

[kakpataka]

If they need to be forced into it then why hasn't that been done through a law firm? Many people here have contributed with money to helping those that have been caught up in this. Shouldn't we hire Trutanich-Michel to do this very thing? If a law frim is not needed, then maybe we need someone "gun friendly" in the government to start raising hell? Where's the NRA on this?
Am I missing something? Can the cost be that prohibitive? Seems like a very straight forward attack would be better than what we have now.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has any one here heard of " declaratory judgement"?
Maybe it can address the issue of what is and what is not " legal" specifically pertaining to OLL, Devices such as Bullet Buttons, Prinze fitty etc.

there does not need to be an actual arrest /confiscation in order to move the court. The Decleration has force of law. It declares rights as such. Feel free to google it.
Seriously, someone here needs to consider this seriously and see if this would apply.I think it does. If I had the $$$$, I would do it for you guys.
We just need for someone to look into it and talk to their attorney about it.
Honeslty, something needs to be done. I ve put this question before on other thead but no one bothered to even discuss it...........................

We can always get NRA Attorneys involved as well but we have to start somewhere. I can do more research on this if you guys want. There was some conference way back in the day in SF about these kind of Suits.

We live in CA within the limits of law and the law needs to be clear.
This would help both sides , I believe. If you guys know a judge, ask them what they think of such a suit.
I hope Gene and Bill talk to some attorneys about it.

Declaratory judgment
n. a judgment of a court which determines the rights of parties without ordering anything be done or awarding damages. While this borders on the prohibited "advisory opinion," it is allowed to nip controversies in the bud. Examples: a party to a contract may seek the legal interpretation of a contract to determine the parties' rights, or a corporation may ask a court to decide whether a new tax is truly applicable to that business before it pays it.

This is with a narrow example and I am sure there ismore to it.
Just doing my part.

[USN CHIEF]

How much money would this cost for you to take this this task Kakpataka?

[kakpataka]

How much money would this cost for you to take this this task Kakpataka?

If I had the $$$$, I would not ask anyone for it and just do it for all of us.
I am hoping someone here gets a legal opinion about it and see if anyone here with means can file it and add NRA also as the petitioner.
This is not a regular law suit like a criminal case but obviously, since the state would get involved it could lead to expert opinion, examination of experts and possibly the whole evidence deal.

But Like I said, we need to figure out if this remedy would be available to us. but any one individual can seek a declaration, provided it is a remedy that can be used. Basically , you are moving the court for a " declaration".

Thanks.

Here is a link: Its from 1922 but gives you some idea as to what it is. Pls read ( 8 pages) and see what you think.
Pay attention to sections 1 & 12.
www.law.upenn.edu/bll/archives/ulc/fnact99/1920_69/udja22.txt

[hoffmang]

kak,

A DJA may not be the most optimal way to get this done. That not a lot is being said doesn't mean that not a lot is being done on the front. There are only three issues. Off list receivers is a dead issue and the CGF will be doing some things to make it easier to keep that clear. The only issues left are clarification of the Prince-50, but that is really well done by the FAL documentation, and importantly the Bullet Button.

Let me state the obvious that some of the core efforts here are on hold waiting for the outcome of Heller. We all have a pretty good idea that it will be an improvement, but the question is how much and how does that impact the best go forward strategies.

-Gene

[kakpataka]

Gene,
What exactly is Heller decision going to do for us? :chris:

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I would think that with an individual right/strict scrutiny ruling your idea for legal action would make overturning CA gun laws a breeze.

Gene,
What exactly is Heller decision going to do for us? :chris:

[hoffmang]

Kak,

I've posted pretty extensively on this so feel free to search.

1. It overturns the core 2A decision in the 9th Circuit called Hickman.

2. Hickman underlies all of the losses on AW issues.

3. Depending on how strongly worded the decision is, it may lead to direct paths to immediately challenge a wide swath of California gun laws.

4. No matter what, it will change the due process and equal protection case balances on those sorts of challenges.

Which cases will make sense to bring first will have a lot to do with the exact language and scope of the Heller decision.

People forget that California is quite unique. It is one of very few states without a Right to Keep and Bear Arms in it's state constitution. Because of that there are many laws in California that could never pass state constitutional muster in other states and so in a lot of ways California is one of a very few sets of venues that can see major changes by importing/incorporating Heller.

-Gene

[buff_01]

My buddy and I were up at Panoche Hills today and ran into a guy who said the same thing happened to another guy a week or so ago. A ranger showed up and took the guys OLL. Looks like something is brewing.

How can "something be brewing"? Federal officers cannot enforce CA law, right?

[Sydwaiz]

Out where I go, I came across a BLM sign. I stopped to take a picture and thought this thread might be appropriate to share it in. Keep in mind I do not share the opinions expressed in this picture. Picture is also not safe for work so open at your own risk.

I hope that the OP gets this cleared up and gets his weapons back. Shame on the BLM officer who doesn't know better.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Sydwaiz55/DSC02356.jpg

If the mods find this picture offensive or innapropriate, please take it down or let me know and I will. I simply thought it was funny when I found it!

[Matt@EntrepriseArms]

Like I said before most BLM guys are a strange sort. Thy only make about $43,00 to $50,000 tops. They usually have tried to get into a municipal pd, but cannot pass the psych. I am not exagerating in the least! One sighn that this guy was not sure about what he was doing is the fact that no arrest was made. Though a site for a court date is an arrest.


What does how much money they make have to do with anything?

[Sydwaiz]

What does how much money they make have to do with anything?

Yeah no kidding. That's not a bad amount anyway. Probably still get full benefits, vacation pay, retirement. I wouldn't mind driving around in the middle of nowhere for that amount! And if you aren't living in a big city and commuting, cost of living will be way cheaper too.

[ar15robert]

Yeah no kidding. That's not a bad amount anyway. Probably still get full benefits, vacation pay, retirement. I wouldn't mind driving around in the middle of nowhere for that amount! And if you aren't living in a big city and commuting, cost of living will be way cheaper too.

probably the base pay then add OT on top of that.

[Solidmch]

What does how much money they make have to do with anything?

That amount is extreamly low. He could make that a VONS. BLM does not get a lot of people because they pay nothing. Anyone that does take that job, quickly leaves to a PD that will pay much more. They can not get qualified applicants because of what they pay. They often take "marginal canidates" If you pay them peanuts, you will get circus animals. So what someone makes can have an affect of the quality of service one will get. If you pay more. You might attract a smart guy that knows the laws and will not take your rifle.

[Ford8N]

I've been reading about these situations for a while and have noticed something similar in each incident. If the DOJ would just do it's job and update the law and send out some kind of notice that OLL's are now legal, NONE OF THESE PROBLEMS WOULD OCCUR.. Maybe it's time to start contacting our representatives to correct this problem. It must be costing the tax payer and contributing to inefficient government by wasting time dealing with OLL's. Just because the DOJ will not let the LEO's in this state know what is legal and what is not.

[hawk1]

kak,

A DJA may not be the most optimal way to get this done. That not a lot is being said doesn't mean that not a lot is being done on the front. There are only three issues. Off list receivers is a dead issue and the CGF will be doing some things to make it easier to keep that clear. The only issues left are clarification of the Prince-50, but that is really well done by the FAL documentation, and importantly the Bullet Button.

Let me state the obvious that some of the core efforts here are on hold waiting for the outcome of Heller. We all have a pretty good idea that it will be an improvement, but the question is how much and how does that impact the best go forward strategies.

-Gene

Gene can you show me, or have a link to the Prince50 and FAL documnetion that you wrote about? Thanks

[hoffmang]

Gene can you show me, or have a link to the Prince50 and FAL documnetion that you wrote about? Thanks

Here is the Fal documentation including letters, testimony, and video! http://www.calgunlaws.com/modules.php?name=NukeNews&file=article&sid=481

-Gene

[rue]

What's the lastest on this? Did the OP get anywhere yet?

[tcrpe]

How come Fed employees . . . . are enforcing . . . CA state law . . . ?

That is a very good question.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

BUMP!

What happened? This was/is a big deal and we haven't had info in a month. A simple, "my lawyer said to keep quiet" will suffice.

[ke6guj]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=107288

[hoffmang]

Counsel and The Calguns Foundation are working on the situation. There have been a couple of identical seizures at the same BLM location that are all being dealt with.

-Gene

[Harrison_Bergeron]

So the lack of a receipt hasn't been a problem?

[workinwifdakids]

Hey, I have an idea!

Maybe CA can arrest these two BLM morons. Maybe we can trade them to the Feds for Ramos and Compean!
:rofl2:

[hoffmang]

So the lack of a receipt hasn't been a problem?

Apparently the receipt issue has been a learning experience for BLM and the more recent folks got receipts... :rolleyes:

Bottom line - no, this was not a Federal LEO who was a renegade gun thief. I'd call it more armchair California Lawyer (which may be a pot/kettle item but I digress...)

-Gene

[daskraut]

What is the status of the oldest BLM OLL rifle grab and when did it occur?

[NwG]

Hey guys..

We are still working on it..

I once again thank the Calguns members for there support. Things would be much different without you guys!


As with any firearm issue things are going to take awhile :mad:

When it's all said and done I assure you I will have one great story to share with all of you!

Nate D

[Gryff]

Hopefully, after this, he will be more educated on the subject.

An trying to make a living working at Starbucks after this is done.

[edittman1]

If this was the BLM land at Panoche, my buddies got hassled there a while ago for AR's and even a defense shotgun which he wanted to make sure had the choke in it (which it did).

Plus, he had some Jr. Douchebag in training with him who was handling their Remington 700 looking through the sights and aiming at them or something ridiculous.

Having a good talk track for these guys would be nice. Is there anywhere to look for one?

[hoffmang]

The seizures in question were in Kern County.

-Gene

[E Pluribus Unum]

The seizures in question were in Kern County.

-Gene

If they were in Bakersfield, I can be of assistance; Call me if you need something.

[gbp]

I have always heard how 'gun friendly' kern co. is-was. hell i was born there but i will tell you last year my son was arrested in maricopa, charged with 5 felonys for having 4-30 cap mags and a "concieled pistol' that was in a gun case locked in the trunk. $40k ($4k to the bondsman) in bail and $10k worth of attorney and everything went away and I got the mags back. I avoid the area now. It's just not worth the hassel until they educate the le.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I have always heard how 'gun friendly' kern co. is-was. hell i was born there but i will tell you last year my son was arrested in maricopa, charged with 5 felonys for having 4-30 cap mags and a "concieled pistol' that was in a gun case locked in the trunk. $40k ($4k to the bondsman) in bail and $10k worth of attorney and everything went away and I got the mags back. I avoid the area now. It's just not worth the hassel until they educate the le.

There is more to this story. Taft/Maricopa is more educated then most other areas. Taft PD loves OLL rifles and hi-cap mags.

What is your son's name so I can look up his charges.

[Ken H]

I have always heard how 'gun friendly' kern co. is-was. hell i was born there but i will tell you last year my son was arrested in maricopa, charged with 5 felonys for having 4-30 cap mags and a "concieled pistol' that was in a gun case locked in the trunk. $40k ($4k to the bondsman) in bail and $10k worth of attorney and everything went away and I got the mags back. I avoid the area now. It's just not worth the hassel until they educate the le.

That's odd, either the DA had a case or he didn't. Paid out 14k and everything went away. Doesn't make sense to me.

I'd be spending 14k on a good civil rights attorney for a false arrest case if all what you say is correct.

Case like that a public defender could have handled all that, less money spent...

[E Pluribus Unum]

That's odd, either the DA had a case or he didn't. Paid out 14k and everything went away. Doesn't make sense to me.

I'd be spending 14k on a good civil rights attorney for a false arrest case if all what you say is correct.

Case like that a public defender could have handled all that, less money spent...

Sounds fishy to me.... Taft PD knows the OLL and hi-cap mag laws.

He will probably say "The 4 pounds of dope in the trunk was besides the point".

[gbp]

Pretty presumptuous since no where in my post did i mention anything about OLL. Re. the 4 lbs of dope? surely you can do better than that. if you must make up something to say to take up band width, I guess that would be as good as anything.
Another charge they had was "tracer ammo". The DA had them tested and found they were NBT's (Nosler Balistic Tips for those in need to know). They don't sound that educated to me.
They also insisted that they could find no record of my sons Rem 7 Mag being registered. I wonder why? could it possibly be that California does not register long guns? Hmmmm inquirring minds want to know. You do what you want but after reading through the previous 13 pages I'll be cautious when traveling through there.

[Fjold]

Sounds fishy to me.... Taft PD knows the OLL and hi-cap mag laws.

He will probably say "The 4 pounds of dope in the trunk was besides the point".

Maricopa has it's own police force. The acting police chief just got arrested for statutory rape.

[Paratus et Vigilans]

Maricopa has it's own police force. The acting police chief just got arrested for statutory rape.


Yeah, their cruisers are generally parked right out in front of the station all the time.

Ah, Maricopa - - a wide spot in the road you have to pass through on the way to Ten Percent Firearms (if you're coming from points south)! :)

[Ken H]

Pretty presumptuous since no where in my post did i mention anything about OLL. Re. the 4 lbs of dope? surely you can do better than that. if you must make up something to say to take up band width, I guess that would be as good as anything.
Another charge they had was "tracer ammo". The DA had them tested and found they were NBT's (Nosler Balistic Tips for those in need to know). They don't sound that educated to me.
They also insisted that they could find no record of my sons Rem 7 Mag being registered. I wonder why? could it possibly be that California does not register long guns? Hmmmm inquirring minds want to know. You do what you want but after reading through the previous 13 pages I'll be cautious when traveling through there.

Ok, they are not educated and should of been, fair enough..Sounds like a false arrest action to me..

Tracer ammo is tracer ammo, doesn't look anything like Nosler BT bullets, even more stupid on their part..

So with all the charges not filed, I'd be finding an attorney and discussing a false arrest claim, AS STUPID is not a defense for anyone..

Get after them my friend...;)

[bdsmchs]

Tracer ammo is tracer ammo, doesn't look anything like Nosler BT bullets, even more stupid on their part..



Well, at a distance they certainly look the same. Orange tips and all. But up close it should be fairly clear that the Nosler has a PLASTIC tip, and not a PAINTED tip.

Still, in this particular single case I could definitely see the confusion.

[Sig226]

Any updates on this BS?


I'm a regular shooter on BLM land in the winter and want to see BLM educated before I'm in the same bucket.


In fact I have shot at the exact location this has been occurring at (Or was occurring at...), which makes it all that much more important to me.

[hoffmang]

The hearsay I've heard is that these guys should be getting their firearms back shortly if they have not already.

-Gene

[Sig226]

The hearsay I've heard is that these guys should be getting their firearms back shortly if they have not already.

-Gene

Ah, now that is nice to hear. Thanks for the update!

Any word on if the BLM offices around that area have been properly "educated" now?


I'm glad the owners are (have got) their rifles back, but I don't want to go out and do the same drill over again for ~ $10k. :-)

[CalCop]

The hearsay I've heard is that these guys should be getting their firearms back shortly if they have not already.

-GeneIf not...can't we just drop the SacPD OLL memo on this BLM office to make it all go away?

[hoffmang]

If not...can't we just drop the SacPD OLL memo on this BLM office to make it all go away?

1. Yes.

2. The guns were turned over to the local DA however so we could keep it from happening moving forward but the existing cases had to end.

-Gene

[WokMaster1]

1. Yes.

2. The guns were turned over to the local DA however so we could keep it from happening moving forward but the existing cases had to end.

-Gene

Oh, for the love, can't Wes just ride his yellow scooter down there & hand that Sac PD memo to the Kern County DA? Crocs are mandatory, of course.;)

[javalos]

Tip: Only shoot at a friendly OLL range, and then top load, or shoot on private property.

[joemama]

^ thats just ridiculous... thats not what the law says. so long as he had a properly configured rifle, he did nothing wrong. One should not be punished for obeying the law. The BLM ranger shouldn't be making up laws and illegally confiscating guns, instead maybe he should be keeping an eye out for poachers, you know the ones who are actually breaking the law. He'll probably realize sooner or later that reading up on the laws your enforcing is a good idea. I hope this guy gets his *** handed to him.

[NiteQwill]

Tip: Only shoot at a friendly OLL range, and then top load, or shoot on private property.
:confused:

The OLL movement is pretty strong now. Why top load when you can use a BB? BLM land is a free-for-all as long as you're following the law.

[Deamer]

I called the ridgecrest office a little bit after this happpened and talked with the head ranger about shooting my OLL on BLM land. He said as long as configured properly I should be OK. He also admitted that he owned an OLL himself that he bought at a shop in Ridgecrest.