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wildcard
05-09-2008, 8:55 AM
This is just a general observation..

When milling, I've realized that you have to be either very precise or lucky for objects that read less than 2 MILS on your scope. For those of you who use a chart that increment at .25 MILS (I assume most do), listen up.

Lets just say for example you have a target that is 10" (silhouette of a average human head perhaps) and you read the MILS to be .75 because thats what it looks like and you have the measurement on your chart. If you do the math or look it up in your chart, you'll find that the target is 370 yds away.

Now let's say you simply rounded to .75 MILS because it was convenient but the MIL reading was actually more like .70 MILS. If you do the math on that, you'll find that the target is actually 396 yds away.

That's a difference of 26 yds or .75 MOA of adjustment if you're shooting a 168 SMK out of a .308. Assuming your gun is capable of 1 MOA accuracy resulting in a 1.5" radius and your miscalculation of 2.25", you'd be off by about 3.75".. almost enough for a miss. You get the point though.

Moral of the story, get a calculator and know your formulas. I picked up a Casio databank calculator watch for $27 shipped with a 10 year battery. I can store 25 lines of data in it and calculate on the fly.

http://www.casio.com/products/Timepiece/Databank/DBC32_Series/product/DBC32-1A/

Edited to add: It also comes in handy for object sizes which don't fall into one of the categories on the chart.

PistolPete75
05-09-2008, 9:22 AM
that's a classic 80s watch. they used to be extremly popular. i just use my calculator on my cell phone when i need to do math.

Mute
05-09-2008, 9:49 AM
That's also why you don't generally take head shots at those kind of distances unless you have no other choice and a miss isn't going to bite you or someone else in the rear.

wildcard
05-09-2008, 10:14 AM
That's also why you don't generally take head shots at those kind of distances unless you have no other choice and a miss isn't going to bite you or someone else in the rear.

Heck no.. hit the torso and call it a day.

I only used a head as an example because I wanted something 10" that everyone can relate to :)

Why don't you ever come out to some of the matches? I know you can shoot!

ar15barrels
05-09-2008, 11:51 AM
I only used a head as an example because I wanted something 10" that everyone can relate to :)

If you can see the head, mil the shoulders. ;)

You have walked around your neighborhood and range with a tape measure and noted how large things are in your log book right?
I once bought a Nikon Mil-dot scope and it came with a neat book with a whole bunch of common objects and their inch sizes.
For example, stop signs are almost all 29" or 30".

PistolPete75
05-09-2008, 11:58 AM
the "urban sniper" subculture.

becareful people might get the wrong idea.

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/snipcov2.pdf

wildcard
05-09-2008, 12:31 PM
the "urban sniper" subculture.

becareful people might get the wrong idea.

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/snipcov2.pdf

What a buzzkill :( Anyhow.. ready to "snipe some steel on Sunday? I'll call you tonight to get it figured out.

Mute
05-09-2008, 1:12 PM
Why don't you ever come out to some of the matches? I know you can shoot!

Who's spreading rumors about me? :D I will, one of these days. Gotta work so I can keep making money to buy more toys. I'm not done collecting yet.

Vu 308
05-09-2008, 6:03 PM
Come to the dark side......MOA system.

ar15barrels
05-09-2008, 6:15 PM
Come to the dark side......MOA system.

The Nightforce NP-R1 is calling...
The Nightforce NP-R1 is calling...
The Nightforce NP-R1 is calling...

Vu 308
05-09-2008, 8:06 PM
Is that what you run Randall?

I am completely sold on that system and more and more guys up here are going the same route.

3x15 NPR1 NF

StraightShooter
05-09-2008, 9:49 PM
Why the NP-R1 and not the NP-R2? I used to have one with the R2 and the hold over points were nice. Is it because the dot on the R1 subtends such a small area for shooting at really long range? I think I heard someone say that once.

wildcard
05-09-2008, 11:47 PM
Is that what you run Randall?

I am completely sold on that system and more and more guys up here are going the same route.

3x15 NPR1 NF

I can't decide if I really care about FFP. I know the advantages of each.. but I don't know if it'll matter all that much to me. At what magnification do the Nightforce scopes range?
I'm guessing 16X for the 8-32?
11X for the 5.5-22?
But what in the world does 3.5-15 range at? It doesn't make mathematical sense.

I don't mind blowing 1.5K for a scope.. but what to get? A nightforce or SH IOR? Decisions..

ar15barrels
05-10-2008, 12:16 AM
Is that what you run Randall?

I am completely sold on that system and more and more guys up here are going the same route.

3x15 NPR1 NF

Not yet, but I almost bought one several times.
I have an older IOR 4.5-14x50 with an MP8 now.
Having a mil reticle and moa knobs does suck.
I'm always converting offsets spotted in mils to moa corrections. :(

Everyone raves about mil/mil, but I think I would prefer moa/moa because it's so much easier to think 1 moa is about 1" at 100 etc...
The math is just easier than thinking about 3.6" at 100 and multiplying it in your head.

I still want front focal though.
It's probably going to end up being a front focal NP-R1/NP-R2 for me when I step up and spend the money.

Vu 308
05-10-2008, 7:26 PM
I am in the same school of thought as you. I can picture inches in my head vs. calling out .3 mils or come up 7/10th of a mil.

+ We live in freaking America. Everything is given to us in yards or inches. Sometimes distances are given to us in meters but that is easily converted.

Unless one of us has to call in artillery there is no real need to have to be on a mil system like the military.


Jason,

As for FFP...when NF comes out with their new scope with FFP and a few more options I've heard rumors about I will switch all my scopes over.

As for now though...3-15x50mm is what I run.

You can get one that is 5-22x50mm as well.

I shot all day today at 15X and it didn't bother me one bit. Hold overs are cake with the MOA system.


Straightshooter: Why not the NPR2?

Well for Windage I want a finer hold point i.e. 2MOA vs I think 4 MOA?

+ Elevation are in 1MOA...gives you more of a precise hold with a NPR1 system in my opinion.

Vu

rksimple
05-11-2008, 2:01 PM
I can't decide if I really care about FFP. I know the advantages of each.. but I don't know if it'll matter all that much to me. At what magnification do the Nightforce scopes range?
I'm guessing 16X for the 8-32?
11X for the 5.5-22?
But what in the world does 3.5-15 range at? It doesn't make mathematical sense.

I don't mind blowing 1.5K for a scope.. but what to get? A nightforce or SH IOR? Decisions..

If the SFP NF were calibrated at 10-12x, I wouldn't mind getting one. But the 5.5-22 is set for 22x. All I've seen are calibrated at max power. That sucks. Of course you could dial to 11 and cut holds in half, but its something I don't want to worry about when looking for the next target or trying to watch the wind changes. If NF can keep their new FFP under 1800 or so, I'll deifinitly be buying one. The glass on the S&B is better, but not $1000+ better.

rksimple
05-11-2008, 2:13 PM
I am in the same school of thought as you. I can picture inches in my head vs. calling out .3 mils or come up 7/10th of a mil.

+ We live in freaking America. Everything is given to us in yards or inches. Sometimes distances are given to us in meters but that is easily converted.



The only time you need to worry about inches is when the target size is given (ie. to "mil" the target). When calling impacts and corrections, nobody I've shot with (except noobs) calls corrections in inches. 90%+ shoot with mil reticles. They call impacts and corrections in mils.

The debate goes on and on, but having the same type of system as your spotter is key. You can't always control that in these matches and chances are, most everyone is going to have a mil reticle. If you can spot your own misses and correct on your own, then it really doesn't matter what system you have, provided you can run it efficiently.

Cypriss32
05-11-2008, 2:19 PM
3.5-15x 50mm Solves all problems. Great power range, 15x is not too high to mil on eather.

ar15barrels
05-11-2008, 3:40 PM
The only time you need to worry about inches is when the target size is given (ie. to "mil" the target). When calling impacts and corrections, nobody I've shot with (except noobs) calls corrections in inches. 90%+ shoot with mil reticles. They call impacts and corrections in mils.

I hear corrections being called in MOA because most scopes have MOA knobs.
As we mostly have MIL reticles, someone is doing the calculations.

Of course you are right that it matters not which system is used as long as both people are working on the system.

rksimple
05-11-2008, 4:03 PM
I hear corrections being called in MOA because most scopes have MOA knobs.


Uummm, no. Corrections for getting a zero maybe. While racing the clock, and wind conditions changing from one shot to the next, you won't hear an impact or correction called in MOA. Unless, that is, the guy calling the shot with his mil reticle wants to convert it for you to MOA, just so you can convert it back to mils so you can hold your correction.;)

Heck, Vu, you should take a poll at the norcal match to see what units are being used most. 75% or more will probably be mil reticle and moa knobs...and they still kick a**. I like having a matching, FFP system, be it mil/mil or MOA/MOA, to allow me to think less about the scope and more about the shot and conditions. I need as much help as I can get.

ar15barrels
05-11-2008, 4:08 PM
Uummm, no. Corrections for getting a zero maybe.

True.
Corrections for adjusting knobs are called in MOA vs corrections for hold over are called in MIL.
All the more reason to do it all in the same system.

Vu 308
05-11-2008, 9:05 PM
The only time you need to worry about inches is when the target size is given (ie. to "mil" the target). When calling impacts and corrections, nobody I've shot with (except noobs) calls corrections in inches. 90%+ shoot with mil reticles. They call impacts and corrections in mils.

The debate goes on and on, but having the same type of system as your spotter is key. You can't always control that in these matches and chances are, most everyone is going to have a mil reticle. If you can spot your own misses and correct on your own, then it really doesn't matter what system you have, provided you can run it efficiently.

Now maybe I am just a noob but I do use MOA for corrections.

I would say about 10 guys that I shoot with all run the same optics so when calling shots for each other we are all on the same page.

i.e. "You are 2MOA low and you need to hold 4MOA right."

When trying to be precise one uses smaller incriments to measure right? So what is a finer incriment? a .5mil or 1MOA?

Most scopes are Mil reticle and MOA knobs...now at the range would you give a guy adjustments in MOA or Mils for his adjustments? I would think MOA since his dials are MOA.

Vu 308
05-11-2008, 9:08 PM
Uummm, no. Corrections for getting a zero maybe. While racing the clock, and wind conditions changing from one shot to the next, you won't hear an impact or correction called in MOA. Unless, that is, the guy calling the shot with his mil reticle wants to convert it for you to MOA, just so you can convert it back to mils so you can hold your correction.;)

Heck, Vu, you should take a poll at the norcal match to see what units are being used most. 75% or more will probably be mil reticle and moa knobs...and they still kick a**. I like having a matching, FFP system, be it mil/mil or MOA/MOA, to allow me to think less about the scope and more about the shot and conditions. I need as much help as I can get.

I can tell you right now you will see A LOT of 3x15X NPR1 on the line this year. It will be MOA to MOA or Mil to Mil on most of the scopes from here. It also depends on your shooting partners. A lot of us usually train as a group so we all run the same optics.

I just picked up another one on the Hide today. This will replace my last Mark 4 mil scope. NPR1 across the board now.

Vu

rksimple
05-11-2008, 9:42 PM
Most scopes are Mil reticle and MOA knobs...now at the range would you give a guy adjustments in MOA or Mils for his adjustments? I would think MOA since his dials are MOA.


I'm talking about corrections...on the fly, you missed, hold the correction and fire. No, its not going to be in MOA most of the time. You guys are not the norm with so many running MOA/MOA. It doesn't matter as long as you have someone driving the same system as you. But with the 260's and such, you shouldn't need a spotter anyway. I think with a lot of guys, having brakes and smaller cals makes needing a spotter not as crucial. Heck, most matches don't allow spotters to help anyway. Its really becoming a non-issue.

I never said you were a noob for calling in MOA, but for calling in inches. Thats what you said, not sure if you meant MOA or not. Forget inches (except when milling) and it doesn't matter what system you have. Both mils and MOA work perfectly because all measurements are based on a given unit of measure, readily identifiable by anyone watching through the scope. You could tell your shooter he hit a foot and a half right, and what you and he percieve to be a foot and a half (at the given distance) could be completely different.

wildcard
05-11-2008, 9:54 PM
Both mils and MOA work perfectly because all measurements are based on a given unit of measure, readily identifiable by anyone watching through the scope. You could tell your shooter he hit a foot and a half right, and what you and he percieve to be a foot and a half (at the given distance) could be completely different.

Actually.. MILS measurements will always be the same while MOA will vary. Point goes to MILS this time :)

rksimple
05-11-2008, 9:58 PM
Actually.. MILS measurements will always be the same while MOA will vary. Point goes to MILS this time :)

Yeah, thats one of the smaller reasons I chose mils. USO can make you one in IPHY or TMOA, NF is pretty good about being TMOA, but loopy seems to vary widely. The mil is more standardized (at least in this country, Russia need not apply).

wildcard
05-11-2008, 10:00 PM
In my experience.. I and everyone I shoot with call in MILs. The only time I use MOA is for telling noobs how much to turn their knobs :)

And if we're adjusting zeroes.. I call the corrections in inches..

No right or wrong answer here guys.. whatever works for you and your partner(s).

rksimple
05-11-2008, 10:07 PM
No right or wrong answer here guys.. whatever works for you and your partner(s).

Agreed. As long as the reticle and turrets match, you're a step ahead.

Vu 308
05-11-2008, 10:20 PM
Ford vs Chevy as always......

Hope to see you boys on the firing line this coming June.

A few of us are thinking of driving down for the May 31st match...shoot that and then drive back up to shoot our match Sunday.

Vu

Pthfndr
05-11-2008, 10:22 PM
Just to throw a different log in the fire here.

I was shooting High Power with an AR for a long time before I started using a rifle with a scope. Doping the wind and making adjustments was all in MOA. I could range a target in MILS with the scope just fine, but when it came time to make adjustments, either with the knobs or holding over/under/off, my mind automatically went to MOA. I had to consciously think about making the conversion to the MILS my scopes reticle was in. I've recently switched over to a scope with MOA/MOA. It worked out well for ME.

ar15barrels
05-11-2008, 11:05 PM
Actually.. MILS measurements will always be the same while MOA will vary.

Please justify that statement.

ar15barrels
05-11-2008, 11:09 PM
I was shooting High Power with an AR for a long time before I started using a rifle with a scope. Doping the wind and making adjustments was all in MOA. I could range a target in MILS with the scope just fine, but when it came time to make adjustments, either with the knobs or holding over/under/off, my mind automatically went to MOA. I had to consciously think about making the conversion to the MILS my scopes reticle was in. I've recently switched over to a scope with MOA/MOA. It worked out well for ME.

Same here.
All the reading you do about reading wind and all the time you spend on shooting lines, you will hear wind calls in MOA.

I shoot with a ex marine shooting instructor and he works purely in MOA.

wildcard
05-12-2008, 9:19 AM
Please justify that statement.

You're a bastard :D

Obviously, the value 1MOA will vary between 1" and 1.047" depending on the manufacturer.

As for Mils:
The standard for all our rifle scopes is 6280 Mil-Radians in a circle.
There is also a true Mil-Radian using 6283 Mil-Radians in a circle.
And you work artillery, then 6400 Mil-Radians in a circle.

As far as our purposes go.. a Mil will have the same value.

aplinker
05-12-2008, 9:36 AM
How can an angular value be a length, without stating a distance? ;)

The different milliradians numbers just come from the rounding of pi.

The military really uses 6400 mrad?

You're a bastard :D

Obviously, the value 1MOA will vary between 1" and 1.047" depending on the manufacturer.

As for Mils:
The standard for all our rifle scopes is 6280 Mil-Radians in a circle.
There is also a true Mil-Radian using 6283 Mil-Radians in a circle.
And you work artillery, then 6400 Mil-Radians in a circle.

As far as our purposes go.. a Mil will have the same value.

wildcard
05-12-2008, 9:52 AM
How can an angular value be a length, without stating a distance? ;)

Are you kidding?

The different milliradians numbers just come from the rounding of pi.

Sounds possible.. but it's really more an issue of adopting a convention. I wonder why they rounded PI to 3.2 for 6400 Mil-Radians.

The military really uses 6400 mrad?

So they say FOR ARTILLERY. I've never actually worked artillery for the military though :)



It was easier just to edit.

rksimple
05-12-2008, 10:12 AM
How can an angular value be a length, without stating a distance? ;)

The different milliradians numbers just come from the rounding of pi.

The military really uses 6400 mrad?

Read this:

http://www.boomershoot.org/general/mils.htm

There's an inherent inaccuracy to mils as well. It just seems to be more standardized at 3.6" at 100 yards. The IPHY and MOA discrepancy may never go away.

All of this really doesn't matter if you know your scopes adjustments and have solid dope from your rifle/scope combo. Its fun to discuss however.

ar15barrels
05-12-2008, 10:46 AM
You're a bastard :D

Obviously, the value 1MOA will vary between 1" and 1.047" depending on the manufacturer.

NO.
1 MOA is 1.047" at 100yds no matter what.
Some SCOPES may have knobs marked in inches/100yds, but those are NOT MOA knobs.
Those could be considered "shooters MOA", but they are NOT true MOA.

Therefore, an MOA is an MOA is an MOA.
As noted in the other thread, a MIL is 3.4xxx MOA, ALWAYS.

wildcard
05-12-2008, 11:02 AM
NO.
1 MOA is 1.047" at 100yds no matter what.
Some SCOPES may have knobs marked in inches/100yds, but those are NOT MOA knobs.
Those could be considered "shooters MOA", but they are NOT true MOA.

Therefore, an MOA is an MOA is an MOA.
As noted in the other thread, a MIL is 3.4xxx MOA, ALWAYS.

So what you're telling me that no scope from ANY manufacturer has knobs designating MOA adjustments calibrated for 1.000" per MOA?

rksimple
05-12-2008, 11:32 AM
NO.

Some SCOPES may have knobs marked in inches/100yds, but those are NOT MOA knobs.


Some scopes have knobs marked in MOA and they're not true MOA. Thats the problem. Some loopies have 1/4 MOA knobs and they adjust in IPHY, or worse, some variation thereof.

wildcard
05-12-2008, 11:47 AM
Some scopes have knobs marked in MOA and they're not true MOA. Thats the problem. Some loopies have 1/4 MOA knobs and they adjust in IPHY, or worse, some variation thereof.

You're supposed to let me trap him first :)

This is why I always say it depends on the manufacturer.

In an ideal world.. a MOA is a MOA and a Mil is Mil down to whatever the significant figure used is.. but in reality the standards (or at least these) change depending on who's providing the product.

Vu 308
05-12-2008, 12:05 PM
Have you actually checked your scopes to make sure it's a true mil?

I've seen scopes that are off on mils as well as MOA.

And Randall is correct. An MOA is an MOA, which is 1.047"

rksimple
05-12-2008, 1:12 PM
Have you actually checked your scopes to make sure it's a true mil?

I've seen scopes that are off on mils as well as MOA.

And Randall is correct. An MOA is an MOA, which is 1.047"

Which scope that adjusts in mils have you seen that wasn't correct? Just want to know. If its one of the big ones (USO, S&B, NF), I'm sure they'd like to hear about it.

Vu 308
05-12-2008, 1:49 PM
:D PM.

rksimple
05-12-2008, 1:59 PM
Gotcha. Thanks.